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Sin is Sin is Sin . . or IS it?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, May 27, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    good post, i agree, and when massdak agrees it is a good post.
     
  2. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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  3. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Oooh! Better mark this date on a calender! More than two of us agree on the same subject!

    I agree also.
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Whoa, there are addictions, there are diseases, and there are chioces. Having an addiction is in and of itself not a sin. Generally, it's is a result of making a sinful choice. Doing drugs is the sin. Being addicted to drugs is the result of the sin.

    Now, alcoholism, otoh, is a disease. It should not be confused with alcohol addiction. There's a difference. There's a cure for addictions. But with the disease of alcoholism, there's no cure. There's treatment, which ls lifelong. You can beat alcoholism, but you remain an alcoholic for your entire life. You're a recovering alcoholic, but you're an alcoholic. Alcoholism should not, however, be confused with "problem drinking". Problem drinking is a sin. It results in drunkenness and often alcohol addiction. These are sins. There are many problem drinkers who are not alcoholics. There are many alcoholics who are not problem drinkers. But, that said, even with an alcoholic, the first thing they must do is openly admit that they have a problem.

    The mistake that is made is when someone looks at a lush and says "that person's an alcoholic". They're more likely problem drinkers. Misdiagnosing a problem drinker as an alcoholic can be destructive the the person with the problem. In either event, the person needs to seek help, or the desire to engage in sinful and destructive activities will continue.

    I agree with the previous post. Disease itself is a result of sin in man and the world around him. It's something that we must deal with as the result of living in a sinful world.

    So I guess I agree with everyone else above me. Scary. Next thing you know, dogs and cats will be living together!!
     
  5. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    LadyEagle, massadak...

    Thank you both for agreeing. Going out on a limb here...this is the exact rationale that I was describing with regard to homosexual sin.

    Homosexuals do not become "homosexual" in a vaccuum. The same kinds of things I've described with relationship to sexual abuse are the same kinds of things that mess people up and make them homosexual.

    As I said in that thread and again here. That does not mean the homosexual is not responsible for his or her actions. Quite the contrary, he or she is very responsible. Homosexuality has at the same time as the personal responsibility piece, a root cause of being the victim of some kind of bad family background, abuse, peer verbal abuse, and other environmental factors (all cumulative) that result in a homosexual person.

    The church, as well as peers, the individuals' families, school mates, etc. can be responsible when it sets homosexuals (and other sexual offenders) off into this little box that says, "That's only rebellion on your part, that's an abomination, if you'd just get real with God then it would just go away."

    That's not always true, as many homosexuals who have become Christians will tell you. In fact, there are many who will tell you that they were saved before they realized they had homosexual desires.

    What happens is that, in all the finger wagging and pointed comments made in the heat of not being able to understand homosexual sin (face it, people deal better with heterosexualadultery than they do homosexual sins), the homosexual, already feeling alone, in pain, and victimized by all the trauma of youth, gives up and so, they go where they are accepted, the gay "ghetto," and end up in a real mess. In effect, many of us, unwittingly, reinforce the things in childhood that have begun to bear fruit in that person's mind. They give up, they act out, and, like all sin, they find pleasure in it for a season, and eventually they end up in bondage. Satan works hard to get them there, and he helps set those with the message of hope and love against them, whether a church, a community, or a family to help keep that person there.

    Now, did we (meaning any of the people involved other than that person) put them in bondage ourselves? No, they got themselves into it. They are responsible for their own sin. However, by breaching confidences, by gossiping, by wagging fingers and offering solutions without understanding that they didn't get to where they are in a vaccuum, we end up only reinforcing those things, and so we, unwittingly, have a hand in keeping them there and simultaneously offering them hope of freedom. We contradict our message, albeit, unwittingly, just like my church did with my Sunday School teachers did. They did the same thing, especially in relationship to the wife; it was just a different sin.

    That is what I meant there, in that thread, about us having to rethink our position a bit, because we don't really realize what we might be doing. We need to, while at the same time, rightly holding homosexuality to be what it is (and opposing their political and social agenda): Idolatry/unbelief acted out with stiff penalities from God because of the abomination that it is also stop for a moment and think to ourselves that, "Hey, this person didn't just end up homosexual, they got that way someway. How might that have happened?" In that sense, we have to create that environment that says, "We hold your sin to be sin, but we are here to help you heal, carry this burden with you, and provide a place where you can either be celibate and not be burdened, or, ideally, let the Lord transform you into the heterosexual man or woman He wants you to be. We, therefore, are sorry for sending you, even if unintended, the message that you are a bad person, because we realize that is the kind of thing that helped you along. However, we do still require of you what our Lord, requires, that you repent and sin no more. Since this is a condition that is difficult, we are also here to help you do just that, if you will please forgive us as we forgive you and God forgives us both, will you please join (or rejoin) us so we can be that healing community of sinners saved by grace that God has called us to be?" It involves bearing burdens, some transparency, and, yes, the willingness to understand things, or at least try to understand things that might make us uncomfortable. Well, sin makes God uncomfortable, to say the least, but He did take the time to become man, the God-Man, Jesus to understand us and pay for our sins. Surely, our discomfort is not nearly what His must have been. Unlike the world, that seeks to understand and excuse; we seek to try to understand and to help them repent and heal, even if that means saying, "Mea culpa" sometimes if we are part of the family or the church or the peer group that may have helped them along, even though we were doing the right thing in the not really the best kind of way.

    I hope this has clarified what I was trying to say elsewhere, but that we were all a bit too emotionally invested to pay attention to what was being said by each other.

    Thanks,

    Love,

    Gene...

    the former homosexual

    [ May 28, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]
     
  6. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    in other words, are you saying that the effect of the sin can lead to physical dependence or addiction that could be classified in the effect of sin, but not necessarily be sin in its self correct?
    like a person that drinks to the point of damaging his liver the sin of over indulgence but the effect it did is not sin.
     
  7. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    well gene, for the sake of not picking on this issue, i do not agree with all that you are saying in this post. it still seems like you have taken this certain sin and have made others co-responsible in order to correctly be a witness to those that are homosexual. i believe that you may need to look at that position again from the biblical point of responsibility. your first post that i agree with is very clear and that i can agree with, but this one seems to be back peddling some.
     
  8. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Maybe using another example might help, albeit one that does not include addiction. How about heart disease.

    Heart disease has, for males, about 50 percent a genetic component. The other 50 percent "risk factor" is a list of behaviors. Let's say that the person stuffs himself full of high fat foods for years and has a heart attack.

    Now, the sin was gluttony. It may or may not have ended up in obesity. It resulted in a heart attack.

    Now, that example was easy. (Just thinking out loud).

    What about persons with actual eating disorders, like anorexia or bulemia or addiction to food, eg. use of food as emotional compensation like some very severely obese people have been shown to do? Hmmm. I'll post now and think on that one a bit before making my decision...

    Thoughts?
     
  9. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    well gene, for the sake of not picking on this issue, i do not agree with all that you are saying in this post. it still seems like you have taken this certain sin and have made others co-responsible in order to correctly be a witness to those that are homosexual. i believe that you may need to look at that position again from the biblical point of responsibility. your first post that i agree with is very clear and that i can agree with, but this one seems to be back peddling some. </font>[/QUOTE]Please, then, show me how that is the case, because I just don't see it.
     
  10. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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  11. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Homosexuality has two dimensions. It has a piece that is personal responsibility...homosexual acts.

    Then there is the other piece. Homosexual desires. They did not happen in a vaccuum. Our Christian counselors and ex-gay ministers (and at one time the APA and AMA, but no more) classify homosexuality, e.g. homosexual desire, as an illness, a behavioral disorder, a "condition," if you will. Notice it is a disorder, as well as a sin. As such, it needs to be worked through. Some struggle with it, some worse than others. I have seen many across the spectrum. Some have no problem at all, others have a harder time.

    Like I said all disease (and behavioral disorders) have sin as the root cause. Therefore, they must be repented of AND worked through. This means that, if there is an environmental correlative factor or factors that involve people (like an abusive or distant parent, a verbally abusive peer group, etc.) that those persons have a contribution to make in the healing process, including, perhaps some repentance of their own, depending on what they did and how much intentionality was involved or how much of a stumbling block to healing they may have been or be.

    It has, in that sense, an additional component that is environmental. (I outlined the things above).

    We need to realize that, in order to get over this piece, not just the personal responsibility piece, that we need to create environments that both require (notice I said REQUIRE) the homosexual to repent and accept Christ (assuming they have not done so already), but also be supportive of him or her in their struggle to change or be celibate and not act out. I am NOT saying we should excuse sin or allow open sin into our fellowships. NO, that is NOT what I am saying. (If they do fall into sin, every effort must be made to bring them back to fellowship in accordance with Scripture).

    For example, if we gossip about that person and breach confidentiality, then what we do is victimize that person. That person may lose his or her trust in us, go elsewhere, and even act out. Now, that person is responsible for acting out and even not seeking to heal the trust gap. However, we are guilty of breaking trust and gossiping. In that sense we have, at that time, fostered an environment that is not godly and, at the same time contributes to the reinforcement of the attitudes and acts that helped get them into to bondage to start with. Remember, we're talking about, usually, childhood traumas that are very difficult. This is true also with survivors of child sexual abuse, like my Sunday School teacher's wife. Had she gone after her divorce and remarried an abuse husband, there would have been a component there that we, as a church had a hand in helping along by all the stuff that happened and led her to leave our fellowhship.

    In relationship to the message against homosexuality. We have to be careful we say the right thing the right way. The answer isn't as simple, always, as "getting real with God, or 'Just accept Jesus and it will all get better.'". WHile at the theological level (perseverance of the saints) that is true, at the practical level, we need to realize that part of how they got there is a sense of "I'm a bad person." It is this that led them to disassociate from a same-sex peer group or parent and it is this factor that, if we aren't careful, we reinforce by offering overly simplistic solutions.

    We should offer those solutions, because a person MUST be saved to get help from God, when you get right down to it, because otherwise it's just the benefits of being saved without Christ, and that is just a powerless false salvation. However, we need to also say, "Hey, you MUST repent; you MUST make every effort to be celibate and work through all the mess that led to your condition, because this sin has deep roots."

    We need to be careful that we reject the sin and not the sinner without unintentionally coming off as doing both. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about doing the right thing, the wrong way. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Same principle.

    I want to be clear. I'm not saying the message is wrong. I'm saying we need to make some effort beyond the simple "Repent and let Jesus help you." Yes, that is true, but Jesus also helps us through EACH OTHER. We can't leave that person in a vaccuum, and we must be clear about that.

    We must preach against homosexuality, but we must be sure we do so with some idea that they did not just wake up gay; it was a long process, most likely in early childhood, that they probably don't understand themselves right now. We have to say, "This is difficult. It goes beyond just homosexual acts, it goes deep in your life, and we want to help you heal from that. If we have at any time sent you a message, however unintentional, that created the perception otherwise, we want to you to forgive us for doing that, and we do so ask God for that same forgiveness. At the same time, again, you must repent of your part in your bondage too. Together, we want to help you bear this burden so that you can be healed of those things that have given fruit to this sinful bondage in your life."

    In that sense, the healing is participatory and may sometimes involves us, in our churches, repenting WITH them as well as causing them to repent. That is why I say, "We need to rethink our message, particularly how we say it, not necessarily its content."

    Is this the apostles way? Yes, I think it is. Why? Simply because we are called to bear one anothers burdens, and, homosexuality is not just a set of acts. Also, we are strongly cautioned not to cause a brother or sister to stumble. That means, in a broad sense, we have to be true to truth but watch it that we don't present the truth in such a way that it cause a brother or sister to stumble. Because we get so emotionally riled up about homosexuality, we sometimes do that. We point fingers and wag them, but we forget the compassionate piece of the truth that goes with it. We must hold to the standard of truth without fostering secrecy and distrust, because it is those two things in which sexual sin, particularly homosexual sin and desire takes root and flowers as homosexual acts and then ends up in major bondage.

    Homosexuality is both personal and a burden that must often be carried while repentant sinners work through that burden. Because part of what helped them along is this feeling of victimization, we must be careful not to victimize them along the way, even unwittingly. At the same time, we must not walk on eggshells. This means we have to be transparent with each other and honor confidences when they are offered and put down gossip when it occurs. Homosexuals are responsible for their OWN sin. However, if we offered simple solutions but no burden bearing, or if we gossiped, or if we sat and wagged fingers at them and sent truly hateful messages, which sometimes we do (like I said, I've already seen cases of the use of the words "queers" and "homos" multiple times on this board, words that do carry with them the force of the word "nigger" when they are used in certain contexts), then we are responsible for that. In that sense, we, like the gossips in my church and everybody else in the example about my former Sunday School teacher, share in sinning with them.

    We aren't responsible for homosexuality, but, because of the nature of homosexuality (and this often goes for most sexual sins for that matter), we can, if we aren't careful and thoughtful, play an instrument in the orchestra that either reinforces those feelings of victimization in the mind of the homosexual, just as my church did in the case study above or, if in the case of the one who has not acted out, fosters the secrecy and distrust that keeps them from reaching out to us and asking for help. After all, we can't help them if they don't ask for it, but at the same time, we need to be sure they understand the door really is open for all that repent and believe. In that sense we can be partly to blame not for the individual's sin, but for being a stumbling block to healing.

    Here is a good article that might help clarify further:

    Compassion is Hard

    Balancing Truth and Mercy

    [ May 28, 2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]
     
  12. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Pardon me, while I poison the well and pose an "unemotional (to me)" question: :D

    So, did Lot "play an instrument in the orchestra that reinforces those feelings of victimization in the mind of the homosexual?" :eek:

    PS: I praise the Lord you are delivered, BTW.
     
  13. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Honestly,

    I don't think we can make that determination, since we know nothing of Lot's life in Sodom. Anything we say one way or the other would be speculation.

    BTW, that's not poisoning the well...red herring maybe, but let's not fry it...it's Friday, but we're not Catholic ;).

    We can examine ourselves and see if we are being a stumbling block to others. Let's be careful that, when people are in bondage, we don't help keep them there, that's all I'm really saying. At the same time, let's not compromise the truth and walk on eggshells.

    It's a give and take. It may make us uncomfortable, particularly for a parent who was distant and didn't realize it or overbearing and did not realize it or a friend that didn't speak up when a child was being verbally assaulted or abused by his or her peers, etc., but, then, it's not comfortable for the homosexual to repent either, is it? For adults, especially adults that come to Christ and are saved as adults and come from really bad backgrounds or have lots of besetting emotional baggage, it's uncomfortable. For the person that may be struggling with sexual sin to hear gay jokes in school or be falsely accused of abusing a child by means of gossip, when the truth is they were the abused child themselves and the false accusation came as the truth was modified in the gossip, it's not comfortable.

    The key is that we be transparent, keep confidences, stand for truth, and at the same time not keep the door of the hospital closed while at the same time mandating their entrance. One extreme, the "progay theology" (and I use the term 'theology' very loosely mind you) would have us open the door and offer no healing. The doctor would declare the patient not diseased. On the other hand, let's not go the other direction and mandate patients to come and close the door, or worse yet, wheel them into the operating room and hack them death in the operation.

    Remember, sins carry scars, and some diseases are either the result of sin, sin themselves, or a combination thereof. Diseases need healing, by definition. Sometimes, people heal faster than others. Sometimes, God heals people instanteously. Sometimes He takes His time. Sometimes all it takes is an over the counter remedy. Other times it takes major surgery. The same is true in dealing with homosexuality, alcholism, drug addictions, etc.

    We Baptists sometimes chastise our charismatic brethren of promoting healing in such a way that says a person isn't really saved if they aren't healed or that God promises instant healing to all His children. That's not true. If if was true, then our Wednesday prayer meetings would be a lot shorter, wouldn't they. The same is true of the diseases of the mind and heart. All are rooted in sin, but they require, in addition to the Healer's touch, our touch with His. God forgives. God frees. God reconciles. The Lord does all that and more. However, He entrusts us, the brothers and sisters in Christ of that person with their welfare. That's a big responsibility, isn't it, considering the process and struggle that a lot of people are going through.

    I think such issues are a test for us sometimes, as well as a test for the person God has delivered / is delivering / wishes to deliver. They are a test of their trust and their obedience. As the same time, they are at test of our ability to bear burdens and offer mercy and stand for truth without compromise at the same time.
     
  14. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Agreed, Gene. But each and EVERY one of us has some scars from life or something either emotionally, spiritually, or physically and sometimes all three, that we need a healing or deliverence from.

    And in my own life, I've found that forgiving others, including myself, (and God :eek: ), too, is the balm that promotes healing. [​IMG]
     
  15. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Exactly, and I'm not saying that homosexuals are special in that respect by any means. I totally agree about pain and forgiveness, and that is why ex-gay ministries also do a lot of talking about sexual bondages as a whole, not just homosexuality, because both as a people, Americans, and as conservative Christians, we remain uptight about talking about sex as it is.

    I've often wondered what life really would be like if we really were as transparent with each other as we are told to be in Scripture, you know. I repudiate Catholicism, but I have to say there is value in confession; not the confession to a priest but in the type of confession that is honored between brothers and sisters in confidence that admits our faults and bears each others burdens TOGETHER, you know what I mean. Not only would it be a huge incentive NOT to sin, it would be a marvelous thing to see God move. I recently read Holiness by Henry Blackaby, and in it he talks about how that kind of transparency and confession and burden bearing is characteristic of times when the Holy Spirit falls and convicts God's people. It's the kind of refreshing I'm convinced God's people need today.

    I lead a workshop for parents of teens from time to time about HIV/STD's and communicating with their kids. In the workshop, I encourage parents to bring their kids with them. I never talk about sex; I talk about the messages we get about sex. I divide the parents from the kids and have them go into separate rooms. They have to each come up with all the messages they received about sex over their entire lives and identify the sources of those messages. Then I pull each group back together and have them make a presentation. They are supposed to give ALL the messages they've received, the context in which they came, the source, and whether they were positive or negative messages. Even in churches, I always find that the overwhelming majority of messages is negative. I also find there is a significant gap in the comfort level each group has in talking to the other and we talk about how all of this affects our communication with each other. In some settings, I use this as a tool to help groups deal with the reality of having persons with HIV in their churches, particularly African-American churches where sex and HIV in particular are major taboos. Then I introduce the idea of how sexual sin and living with HIV share a common denominator in the way the people living with them are dealt with. They are shunned out of ignorance about disease, like believing you get HIV from a swimming pool; or they are victimized and made special by being referred to as "AIDS victims," or people get hung up on how somebody got HIV and they begin doing this weird moral triage to determine whether they should befriend that person or not or help them if they need help. Likewise, we do it with sexual sins. We shun people, we victimize them by gossiping and breaching confidences, or we start taking sides about how innocent they are or not, when the fact is this person is in our church, needing help, asking for it, and we're talking about them and not to them and giving them the help and support they are there to get.

    When we single them out (each of these groups), we make them special; when we spend large amounts of time pointing out their sins, we make the special, and homosexuals ARE in fact marginalized people that have a distinct cultural identity, they are special.

    Unlike the homosexual, the average joe doesn't usually have a large tangible investment in their hurt and pain, really. That's the big difference. Homosexuals have done two things.

    First, they've created and been aided in creating a "no fault" myth. They have a large emotional investment in that myth. Any challenge to that myth is perceived as a threat, because it means they have to face the reality of their own sin; but it also means their loved ones, e.g. parents and peers have to face up to their failures too, and that is something homosexuals work hard to protect. That's what's odd about homosexuality. They wind up seeking to protect, not just themselves, but those that actually played a role in the pains that planted the seeds of desire that have now given rise to open sin. Weird, huh. It's contradictory to do it, but they do it nonetheless.

    Second, they have created an entire subcultural identity that most people don't really realize they have created for themselves. We tend to identify gays with their political agenda. However, we need to understand that there is much, much more to the gay subculture than all of that.

    There is more to homosexual bondage than their personal bondage. It is a systemic bondage of a whole set of people. Let me take a minute to describe what I mean:

    First, they have political values. We all know about that. There are groups like Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD, GLSEN, local pride organizations, all kinds of lobbying groups, and an entire political machine that they have built that not only works on government, but indoctrinates, yes, I said the "i" word, their own community with a constant barrage of negative images of Christians the same way we often do them. Add to that the range of celebrities that get on the gay rights bandwagon and the celebritization of American culture, and the political machine becomes very powerful and very lucrative for them.

    Second, there is a whole set of philosophical values that glues homosexuals together as a unit. "Since homosexuality is presumed to be genetically or biologically determined (just like the color of one’s skin), ‘different’ is always OK. And hatred, when it comes to homosexuality, is always bad. Hence we have videos like, “Be True to Yourself” in which a photogenic gay couple encourage teens to consider whether or not they are gay, too. At the same time, another strain of presumptions says that everyone deserves the right to choose this lifestyle. An ad for gay youth groups around the country carries this banner: “Sky’s the limit. Be who you want. Young. Gay. Need to talk?” This of course blends in beautifully with the post-modern relativism of our day, where there are no absolutes and “it can’t be wrong when it feels so right.” So, you see, when I say we need to understand homosexuals, I do mean we need to have an idea of this is what they tell each other, because this is HEAVILY indoctrinated into homosexuals every day." (Reaching Gays, 1999)


    Third, homosexuals share economic values. They have worked hard to form communities of gay owned and operated businesses. They support each other in housing and employment. There are law firms run by gays for gays, and whole medical practices that serve the gay community alone. They have their own drug rehabs. They run community centers for themselves. They run their own media. Some cities, like Atlanta, run several newspapers and magazine for the gay community. Whole parts of many cities are populated primarily by gay persons. Entire shopping centers are occupied by gay owned or gay friendly restaurants, bars, and small business. Entrepreneurship runs very high in the gay community. Alcohol manufacturers, banks, and credit card companies compete for the gay customer, even promising to give part of their purchases to a gay charity or political organization of their choice. We have to realize that gays that come to us for help are risking giving up their homes, careers, friends and livlihoods to come to us. It's not just as easy as "getting right with God," there really is a large cost to many gays for leaving their lives. Are we willing to open our homes and our hearts to those who need to make a break with this sub-culture and find a new livelihood?

    Everybody has a need to have a set of social values that gives them a sense of identity, and gays have developed that too. They have their own definitions of a family. They have often given up families, friends, and, yes, churches, in "coming out," and have found replacements for those lost values in a large community that has developed its own identity in that respect. What we say they lack, they do in fact have, although not the biblical based definitions. Not only that, but along with those social values comes a language and methods of expression that makes some people uncomfortable. Gays refer to themselves in many ways and even have their own set of "in jokes" about themselves that are intended to redeem some of the stereotypes that we assert (some right and some wrong ones). They have their own dress codes, their own set of sexual values, their own set of creative values, their set of...insert value name here...and gays have actually developed it. Again, the homosexual that leaves that community for us is often faced with letting go of some of those things as well, and there is a lot of self-defensive posturing that underlies all those things, because they were all developed by them to compete with ours and to compensate for what they lost when they separated from dominant society.

    They also have their own worship rituals. I do not mean the worship of God. I mean exactly what Romans 1 says about worshipping the created and not the Creator. For gay men, the male form is worshipped. Gay magazines advertise shirtless men all the time, even for the most mundane things. Lesbians are the same, but more tasteful. While heterosexual porn is about power over women, gay porn informs about safer sex, while at the same indirectly glorifying the meth culture without actually saying so (There is a whole sub-subculture involving sex and methamphetamine among gay men). Sex addiction is not uncommon, and there is even a whole set of ritualistic "cruising" behaviors among gay men.

    Then there are dirty little secrets of the gay community. I've already mentioned one...the gay meth culture. Another is the rising level of domestic violence among gays, lesbians in particular. If ever there was a population that is receptive to the Lord, the gay meth subculture is, but nobody I know of really knows this. (HINT: PRAY GOD WILL SEND CHRISTIAN MEN AND WOMEN TO THESE PEOPLE, YES AS MISSIONARIES EVEN). "Tina" as meth is called leaves gay men drained of energy, physically wasted often, and contributes to HIV infection. While HIV infections living in the US now are NOT primarily among gay men (as of December 2002), meth addiction contributes to its spread nevertheless. Add to that the access to analbolic steroids that HIV positive persons have for treatment to keep up their lean body mass, plus the high value on physical fitness, you have a bizarre thing going on in the gay community. However, since the move now is to integrate into the dominant culture, gay meth users, while continuing to grow in number in many cities, are shunned by their brethren because of the bad image. As one friend of mine once said, "I remember when there were demonstrations in the streets for us when we all had AIDS. We survived Stonewall; we survived AIDS, now Tina is killing us and nobody cares." The church now has an open door. Will we take it? I pray every day that God will send a missionary to Midtown Atlanta, the gay ghetto, and reach out there. Did you know that since First Baptist Church left Midtown, there is now no conservative evangelical church in the Midtown area? There are hundreds of gay men, probably a few thousand there now, hooked on sex and meth, but there is only ONE Crystal Meth Anonymous group for them. The door is open; all we have to do is pray the Lord will send somebody there for them.

    So, you see, compared to the "average joe," gays have a major cultural investment in their pain. They need to learn to forgive, but we need to understand that there is a MAJOR cost they must often count in order to come to us. When we sometimes drive them away by swinging to the extremes, that's where we're driving them. You see...homosexual bondage is not just personal...it's a community of people. When I say Satan has worked hard to put them in bondage I mean just that. What I've described above just skims the surface.

    So, back to sin :)...Confessing sin and supporting each other means counting the cost. There's a cost for the welcoming church to count, because they have to consider what people in bondages (and I'm using homosexuality now as an illustration of sinful bondage) are coming from many times. Drug culture doesn't have all the values undergirding it that gay culture does, but it does have a certain culture to it too. Are we really prepared to open our hearts to all these folks. That's an ongoing answer, we have to answer for ourselves. If we don't think we are, then we need to pray God changes us so that we are. People come to us with baggage, not just bondage, you know.

    When you see a gay man or a lesbian that has come out of homosexuality, picture them having to have left and lost those things I've pictured here. When you see a gay man or lesbian in bondage to sin, picture these things as some of the chains the tie them down. That is why it takes the power of God and the kind of people of God that I've described in other posts in this thread to help them heal when God brings them out of that bondage. It truly is a testament to God's power when a homosexual comes to us for help. This is the bondage He breaks :)! We all have our own cost to count. I realize that...but that is what the homosexuals' cost often is.
     
  16. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    No John; you will find that they do not.
    Although they do state that alcoholism is a disease according to their criteria, we find that their criteria is in error.
    Note that on the VERY SAME PAGE that you linked; we find this quote...
    "Alcoholism, also known as alcohol dependence, is a disease that includes the following four symptoms:

    - Craving--A strong need, or urge, to drink.

    - Loss of control--Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.

    - Physical dependence--Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.

    - Tolerance--The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to get "high."

    My wife is an addictions counselor. She knows the DSM IV backwards and forwards. The phenomena known as craving does not happen UNTIL the alcoholic takes the FIRST drink. At that time the loss of control factor kicks in which in turn leads to increased tolerance which then leads to physical dependence. It is unfortunate that this 'highly respected' group of folks did not list the symptoms in the order that they happen in actual experience. NOBODY craves a drink of alcohol until they take the first one. This is a learned behavior. They drink, find it pleasurable, drink lots more on many, many occasions until they have developed a tolerance. Not until they have developed a certain level of tolerance do they the PROGRESS to dependence.
    Not until they have a tolerance for it and a dependence on it do they show signs of loss of control over how much they drink when they begin to drink on any given occasion.
    I find this interesting.
    "With treatment, one thing is clear, however: the longer a person abstains from alcohol, the more likely he or she will be able to stay sober."
    You see that double talk? If you DONT'T drink, you can stay SOBER ! What a revelation!!!!!!!!
    Here's more;
    " We also know that people who start drinking at an early age--for example, at age 14 or younger--greatly increase the chance that they will develop alcohol problems at some point in their lives."
    Another revelation! The younger you are when you pick up that first drink, the more likely you will have problems! DUH!!!!!
    Here's another one, same page.
    "How can you tell if a person has a problem?
    Answering the following four questions can help you find out if you or a loved one has a drinking problem:

    Have you ever felt you should cut down on your drinking?
    Have people annoyed you by criticizing your drinking?
    Have you ever felt bad or guilty about your drinking?
    Have you ever had a drink first thing in the morning to steady your nerves or to get rid of a hangover?
    One "yes" answer suggests a possible alcohol problem. More than one "yes" answer means it is highly likely that a problem exists. If you think that you or someone you know might have an alcohol problem, it is important to see a doctor or other health care provider right away. They can help you determine if a drinking problem exists and plan the best course of action."

    Now tell me. WHICH disease on earth is diagnosed the same as this one? Which one? There aren't any.
    I just see it now..man goes into the doctor. Doc, I been feeling kinda out of sorts. Doc says, ok, tell me, do you feel you should not cough so much?
    Do people annoy you by pointing out your coughing?
    Do you feel guilty about coughing? Do you cough in the morning? Man says, sure Doc, I do all those things. Doc says, My boy! You got pneumonia!

    What a ridiculous joke.

    No Johnv, you have been deceived.
    Alcoholism is a learned behavior and it is 100% curable. Just STOP drinking!
    Jim
    By the way, as one already pointed out, it is also sin. It is sin to become alcoholic, it is sin to remain alcoholic. Alcoholic means ADDICTED to alcohol. It IS sin.
     
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Abe Lincoln asked, "If you call a dog's tail a leg, then how many legs does a dog have?"

    Answer: Still 4. It doesn't matter what you call the tail; it doesn't make it a leg.

    Modern society does not want to label drunkeness as a "sin"; so they call it a disease.

    Same with "sodomy/homo/lesbian/gay". Child molesters. Wife beaters.

    All just "diseases". Some even get disability or government checks to pay for "treatment".

    Sin is Sin is Sin . . no matter what people call it (think that's how we started this thread)
     
  18. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    As I stated on another thread, life is so much calmer, simpler, and "livable" if you just accept God's word as written!
     
  19. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No all sins are not equal. All sin is sin and sin seperates us from God, but certain sins do bring greater condemnation. John 19:11

    Yes some sins do show different levels of displeasure. Some are cleary an abomination while others are called sin. Both are wrong and not to be done, but because of the results of those sins they do bring greater attenbtion from God.

    Yes we should have different penalities for different sins. The society requires it if it is to survive.
     
  20. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    No all sins are not equal. All sin is sin and sin seperates us from God, but certain sins do bring greater condemnation. John 19:11

    Yes some sins do show different levels of displeasure. Some are cleary an abomination while others are called sin. Both are wrong and not to be done, but because of the results of those sins they do bring greater attenbtion from God.

    Yes we should have different penalities for different sins. The society requires it if it is to survive.
    </font>[/QUOTE]good post i agree
     
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