Sin. Where did it come from?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Sin was found.
    Ezekiel 28:
    15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created
    till wickedness was found in you.

    This is a left over thought from a now closed thread. Did God make sin if it was found? Where did sin come from? How did it get in the world. Below is the last post dealing with the subject...

    Was sin found under a rock? Was it found in a tree? Where was sin found and how did sin get there?

    The writer of the post above said.."it comes from the desire of the heart". Where did the desire to sin come from?



    In Christ...James
     
    #1 Jarthur001, Dec 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2006
  2. Bartimaeus

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    J, If you would please, define what you mean by "sin", maybe that will help us to post definitively. Will you use a scriptural definition, a definition out of a bible dictionary or what? Mind you, this is not a challenge, it is just that I have found on this board of world wide views, when the "shamans" get on here you just never know what answer they will come up with.

    Thanks Bart/Ky/Look Away!
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    James 1:
    13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
     
  4. skypair

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    ...

    Taking Jesus defintion of sin in the Sermon on the Mount, sin is an "unlawful desire." Why did Lucifer or any of us have unlawful desires. Be cause we are free moral agents capable of knowing right and wrong.

    The origins of sin seem to be "want" or, Jas 1:!4 calls it, "lust." We know from the get-go that we are dependents -- dependent on God. We were created - we supply nothing of ourselves. Existence requires things even from infancy. We call this the "survival instinct." But survival quickly leads to wanting more than just survival which leads to wanting things we ought not have -- selfishness. Our cries for what we need are turned to cries for what we want.

    I think this is where Calvinism gives us a poor working model. They assume "total depravity" without understanding what is the origins, the working, or the meaning of the "sin nature." Answer where sin came from and you answer these issues regarding total depravity -- what it is, how it works, how we all differ from the Adam of God's direct creation.

    skypair
     
  5. npetreley

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    Jesus is/was a free moral agent capable of knowing right and wrong. Why didn't He sin? What did Jesus have that we don't have?

    When we are in heaven, will we still be free moral agents then? Will we have the ability to sin? If so, then why won't we sin? If not, why not?
     
  6. Samuel Owen

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    It seems pretty obvious where Sin originated, with the Father of lies satan.

    1 John 3:8
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    KJV

    What was nature of satans sin, and judgment.

    Ezek 28:17
    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    KJV

    What was the nature of satans particular sin.

    Prov 8:13
    13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
    KJV


    Pride, and Arrogance this is a common trait of all men both saved, and un-saved. The greatest danger to all Christians is spiritual Pride, and Arrogance. This usually comes just before a fall. Take it from one who knows, I have been to the bottom and its a long climb back up. :)
     
  7. Jarthur001

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    Why is someone tempted at all? Why would anyone lust? What makes sin enticing and why is it enticing? Surely we can see beyond sin and see what drives this.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    Hello Samuel,

    You posted some good verses that addresses what sin is. But where did sin come from? The Devil you say...but where did the Devil find sin?



    I think you are getting close with this, but how do we get pride in the 1st place? How did Satan become arrogant?




    Where did Satan know how to lie? What was enticing to satan? There is one thing that drives sin, and it can be linked to all sin.
     
  9. Allan

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    Sin comes from the decision NOT to obey God.

    It was and still is a decision to act contrary to what God has asked and we know is truth.

    The Angels could obey or not just as man. We did not have sin in us but the propencity TO sin was in us. But once we sinned willfully it was a part of us. Jesus as a man could have chose to sin (since there was no sin in Him just like Adam at the first) but instead did not.

    By one man sin CAME into the world and by one man...


    Yes there is one thing James and that is pride or exalting oneself to a status equal to or above God.
     
  10. Samuel Owen

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    Isa 14:12-15
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    KJV


    Good old fashioned LUST. Yet again common to men, to have all their eyes behold. The key words being "I Will" not Gods will be done.
     
  11. npetreley

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    I would still like some answers to my questions.

    But in my opinion, I do not think you can get away from the fact that God is the ultimate cause of all things, including sin. This is not the same thing as God sinning, or God forcing someone to sin -- those are the knee-jerk reactions of people who think God needs defending. But God willfully created beings He knew in advance would rebel, all according to His ultimate good purpose. You can go on and on about how iniquity was "found" in satan, but can you honestly say it came as a surprise to God that satan would rebel, or that God was not powerful enough to have prevented it?

    The same goes for Adam and Even in the garden. Satan can do nothing on his own without God's permission. So why was satan even allowed in the garden of Eden? Was God unaware of what would happen?

    How does this relate to my questions? That depends on how you answer the question about why we'll be sin-free in heaven.
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    Allan,


    I do not disagree with you, but I do think Samuel has gotten to the point...or the point as I see it.

    Its the will. Man wants his will over Gods will and this is always sin.

    Now why bring this up? This is a carry over from a old thread. It was said many times that good and evil was placed in front of us to choose. All we need to do is use this free choice to choose the good. But is this choice a good thing?

    Many see the will of man as a good thing. Calvinist do not deny that man has a will. But being that man has a will, and being man is born in sin, sin will be the choice, for the will is controled by sin. Therefore mans will is sure to bring sin.

    What is the Will? The will is the cause of all action in us. We do what we want or will. Even if the choice in numbers comes to two choices, the choice in actuality is only what comes from the heart. The 2nd choice is there, but never is a real choice. Choice means that one thing is choosen and the other rejected. The positive and the negative must be present to the mind before there can be any choice. In every act of the will there is a preference ...the desiring ...of one thing and not the another. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But if we have a nature of sin, it is clear to see that sin will rule in a freewill scheme. Why? We are controled by what we see as good. The sinner sees sin as good.

    The choice will always be the good as we see good. If sin is good to us we will choose it. If I see drugs as bringing good to me, the feeling I get, the escape that comes with it, what have ya, I will do drugs. I can not deny the good I feel toward this sin forever. Yes, I can deny it for a short time and then I will take drugs again. For in my mind, drugs are good. This is how sin controls us. The desire comes from what we see it as good. Sin is in our will to want this good. The will of man binds us to sin. We are slaves to it when we control our own will. We must be controled by the Spirit in order to remove the sin and remove our will to sin.

    God will never be a real choice till sins blinders are removered. God will not look like the good choice till we have understanding that God is good. Yes many will say God is good, but if they see God taking away the good they find in sin, then this is no longer good. :) This understanding only comes from God that paves the way for salvation. Removing the blinders is not salvation, for salvation only comes after faith is placed in God.

    The sinner will never see the need of salvation as long as man is in control of his will!!!


    In Christ...James
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    some choice............
     
  14. J.D.

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    Good post James - I've often thought that perhaps God creats the will (whether of Satan or man) and thus any competing will becomes unlawful before God by its own nature. Sin is the consequence of a competing will. Therefore, God does not create sin, but does create the will which inevitabley sins. In this scenario, God creates His own competition and then defeats it.

    Does this theory have any validity or am I going loopy?
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    I for one agree with much of what you said. Satan did not sneak in the back door of the garden. God knew Santa was there. God knew the tree was there. Hey...God made the tree. I do think that sin comes from the will. God uses the sin nature of man to bring glory to Him. Even in Satan. Satans hate for Christ, worked will into Gods plan to place Christ on the cross. This is what I call the full spectrum of Gods controling power. We can see this in Joseph. Who sold Joseph as a slave? His brothers right? I mean..you read the story. No one forced them to sell Joseph. They were wrong. They sinned and someday they will pay for it. But...who controled them with their sinful wills?



    Notice this is not a good thing out of bad. This was Gods plan all along. The full spectrum of Gods controling power is the brothers thought they had a choice, but really God was in control.

    wow....what a God we have.



    In Christ...James
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    I would say you are very close to it....or as I see it, you are.

    What you have just said is clear to see in the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Who did it? Well...Pharaoh did with his lust for power. But God really did for he know pharaoh would say no...and no...and no. So...God kept asking.

    Yet...it still works with James..."God tempts no man". In the James passage lust of the will is shown to be what causes sin.



    In Christ...James
     
  17. LeBuick

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    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
     
  18. Allan

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    >>>Edited all of it<<<
    Remember this is about WHERE SIN CAME FROM and anyone (Pharaoh or Cain or Josephs brothers) are completely outside this discussion on where sin came from and not the effects of Sin after the fact.

    Adam was not created with sin but the potential to sin. WHat God did know (IMO) was that if man was left to himself he would of his own fall short or sin WITHOUT God to help. Just like Now, If man is left to himself he will not seek God, so God has to intervene that man might have hope and that Hope is in Christ.
    Lets us start here (from Adam) and work backward shall we?

    First there is no lusting before sin, period. We lust sinfully because we are sinful creatures. If we did not have sinful natures at the first (in Adam) we would not lust to sin or better to strongly desire to go against God.

    We find NO scriptural evidence that Adam and Eve lusted or that they struggled within themselves to obey God BEFORE Satan came on the scene.
    Once Satan was on the scence so to did new information come into play. Adam and Eve technically had no choice to make until new and false information was presented to them. It is here we find contention of lie verses truth. We are judged on what we do with this revealed truth and if we do not hold to it we have sinned or missed God standard or mark. This is why we find Eve being DECIEVED to sin by disobedience as she choose to listen and believe contrary to Gods Own Words. The will is not sinful as God via the will saves us who will humble ourselves. (whether Calvinist or non and where you place it - that humbling is our wills subjecting itself to God) The action we take concerning that will determinds whether or not we have sinned against the Will of God. Adam did not lust to sin as scripture states he took the fruit and ate. Why did he do it?? That is a question only Adam can answer but what we do know is that up till them he had no sin and yet he choose against Gods command bringing sin upon all mankind.

    That leaves us with Satan, and why did he fall since with Adam and Eve it was not till new information was given. But Satan without seemingly no other information than of his own mind, he desired to be exalted, he decieved 1/3 of the Host of Heaven to rebel BEFORE he was cast from his position. They are not like man and we don't know enough about their mental abilities and how they think to give an appropriete responce as to why Lucifer fell but what we can know is that Pride was his downfall. Pride is the downfall and technical sin of all beings at the first.

    Sin comes from any chioce made in the contrary to Gods revealed truth.
     
    #18 Allan, Dec 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2006
  19. Samuel Owen

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    John being wiser than all of us, answered this in one verse.

    1 John 2:16
    16: For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    KJV
     
  20. skypair

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    Good questions, np. 1) Jesus didn't sin because He had the mind of God -- the indwelling Holy Spirit -- from birth. If we had been indwelt from birth, I believe there is a lot of sin, perhaps all sin, we might have not gone after to begin with.

    2) In heaven, we will be totally indwelt by the mind of God Holy Spirit. The reason God Himself doesn't sin though He could -- is that, knowing everything, He knows the consequences of sin vs. the joys of not sinning. Would you EVER sin if you knew how horrific the consequences are AND you knew how well obedience would come out?

    See, even Lucifer and his angels didn't know this. They imagined that they would be better off rebelling, right? So did Adam. Both had plenty of good to choose from but desired that was tempting but unlawful.

    That's a good point. God made (angel and man) what I like to think of as "children" who knew to grow into the image of God -- He would give them all they needed to interact one day with Him face-to-face which is what we see in Rev 22:4!

    I like to think about Smokey Robinson's "theology" at this point. Don't know if you've heard the song but the chorus is

    "But if you can want, you can need;
    and if you can need, you can care;
    and if you can care, you can love.
    So if you want me, I'll be there."

    Kinda interesting -- we all begin "wanting," don't we? And want doesn't necessarily turn to sin if we turn to God instead, right? God wants us to need Him, care for His attention, and love Him just like Smokey sang it. :D

    skypair
     
    #20 skypair, Dec 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2006

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