Sinner's Prayer and the PC Movement

It may be only a parable. If so, what is Jesus trying to teach?

And what about Luke 23:42-43?

skypair

 

Positive confession has nothing to do with the sinners prayer. The sinner believes most are usually convicted to the bone and already sorry for their sins. I know I was. The prayer is about repentance and belief and most importantly public confession of Believing in Christ. They step out and come forward because the preacher invites them to. It's not like they wouldn't be saved unless they didn't. The public confession of Christ seem so difficult when in the end you are so blessed for not being ashamed of your coming to Christ. We have been invited to come to Him by Christ Himself.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


This rest He gives us is far better rest than anything I can imagine. It a rest from looking for the punishment for our sins. It's rest from our labours.

Paul says this about confession;
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Stop thinking that a parable by Christ is a fictional account and not necessarily true because this would make God a liar. I for one do not believe that Christ would make something up to give an illustration when He knows everything about everyone.
MB

 

That was a blessing, MB! :godisgood: And "rest" doesn't begin to describe how God leads you along into and ABUNDANT life of spiritual and physical blessings (Prov 3:16, 22:4) if you only trust Him! I fear it is the skeptics of our faith who do not know this.

skypair

 

These are not prayers; nor are they praying to be saved, asking Jesus to save them, nor 'asking Jesus into their hearts'. No one in scripture did any of these things.

I'm done looking for it; I'm not done hearing about it. This is exactly my point. If a 'sinners' prayer' is important, where is it in the Bible? Where did Jesus pray with anyone or have them pray to be saved? Or Paul? Or Peter?

You use "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kindom", and "God be merciful to me a sinner" and tell them that if they sincerely prayed that they are saved?

Well, I don't know. Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again (and told him how, incidentally) without mentioning that he had to wait. This is a tangent, though, not the issue.

So, as my original point stated, [your] interpretation/application of this verse states that a deaf or mute man cannot be saved, or at least is saved in a different way than others.

I'm not doubting that you are saved or understand salvation; my intent all along has been to refute those who go around saying 'pray this to be saved' or 'pray this and you're saved'.

I will it will be in a new thread. Perhaps then you will understand my passion in this area...

In the meantime, there are too many questions in our posts to continue in a coherent thread (IMHO). I will boil it down to one in my own thread. It will be: If a 'sinners' prayer' is important, where is it in the Bible?

I release this thread to continue its discussion on PC, etc.

 

You are right. We can only assume that those hearing their words would obey if they chose salvation.

Yes I do. If you understand in your heart (Rom 10:9-10), we still know that it is the Holy Spirit that takes our "groanings" which we cannot utter (Rom 8:26) and intercedes for us before the throne of God, right?

The thing I think you find offensive about the "sinner's prayer" is that we try to have the convert "touch all the bases" and that is not always a heartfelt prayer, is it?

You make a very good point about the deaf person but not the mute. But a deaf person of Paul's may have a limited knowledge of Christ and would come under Rom 1:20 and the "everlasting gospel" so far as "saving knowledge."

Well, I understand this -- as if we are "ritualizing" salvation by formatting a "sinner's prayer" for someone to say. But I do believe that, where able, the Bible calls for us to verbalize our heart's decision.

skypair

 

Tom, I apologize for responding slowly and your post was excellent with good points.

Please do not take offense with any of the following as it is offered from one Christian to another and in your same spirit.

I don't think you are "super" sensitive and I am much the same way, especially when it comes to Scripture. This is why I am always careful in providing facts, in this case Scripture, or in requesting such to be presented. This is imperative in order to avoid making mistakes as we are discussing Scripture. You yourself erred in saying no where does Scripture ask us to "accept" Christ as our Savior and then referenced the Apostles. When in fact the Bible does state just such in 1 Timothy.

I also appreciate your enthusiasm but would encourage you to avoid drawing to many conclusions. I was raised Lutheran, often visited Churches of Christ with a great family friend and mentor from such, visited non-denominational Churches, enjoyed watching Presbyterian sermons. We attend a Baptist Church as my wife was raised. I have always had a special relationship with God from my earliest age but indeed grew closest to Him outside the Church. As I had much time to enjoy the outdoors and His many creations with time to reflect upon what might have been shared of the Gospel.

I state this for several reasons and to address one of your points.

When I discuss or debate Scripture it never enters my mind that I am doing such as a Baptist but simply as a Christian. I do so based upon my own understanding and yes of which I was taught/learned, but based upon the Bible. I have enjoyed the above denominations with each offering excellent points but also with each having some Scriptural flaws as I see. Yes, it is depressing to see Churches struggle or better said, it is great to see Churches thriving! As we have many Churches in south Alabama within walking distance and many large one's being built on the Coast. However, we know the door is "narrow" therefore Church attendance will never be what we hope for. I am happy to say our Church is really experiencing growth but we have the same problems as you stated.

I don't know that I would blame it on something as the sinners prayer which may be a stretch. I blame it on the indifference of us Christians as we allowed the removal of God from our Schools and elsewhere. We are reaping the effects of the debasing of America, the family, and the Church. There are Church denominations which openly act in defiance of Gods Word.

I believe if a Church strives to be in the Word of God and corrects itself when it appears not to be, then that Church will be blessed. It will serve to be the "light" we are called to be. I do believe we are about to experience revival in this Nation though and heard a good report on the Laura Ingraham show today. Which cited the trend of younger Americans leaning toward pro-life versus abortion. I think Christians are finally awakening to the many important and yes Godly issues which affect us.




Take care Tom and I hope you have a great week.
I will catch you on other threads.
God Bless you,
Ralph

:wavey:

 

I would think that by accepting the truth of the gospel one would also be accepting Christ especially since Christ is the truth of the gospel. In order for one to accept a truth one must be convinced and being convinced is believing it to be true.

Of course this doesn't include submission to the righteousness of God. Is submission just giving up or is there decision involved?

The only way we can submit is by ceasing our rebellion and to me this is where the freewill decision lies. Our Salvation is up to God.
MB

 

This goes against Matthew 13:20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

 

Hi Webdog;
To me the hard ground is the man who see's Salvation as a passing fancy. He is half hearted about it and doesn't put down roots.He's in a hurry and doesn't learn all He needsto know. He most likely doesn't even know what he is being saved from given he has no roots. Roots are knowledge. Which is why I never could understand how someone can claim they are saved and yet cannot recite even one verse.

Also a man cannot be saved when the man wants to be his heart must be convinced completely and convicted thoroughly this only happens with knowledge or roots.

Actually when you take into account that Christ and the apostles said on many occasions that little word "MIGHT"
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

Those things were knowledge.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So many are convinced that if they say they believe that's all it takes but God knows the difference between those who mean it and those who don't. It isn't up to us if we are saved or not it's up to God. If we trully believe and submit to Him the chances are very high. It is God who see's the heart.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These above found power in His name and still had no roots.
MB

 

There are a couple of "strikes" against this "pitch:"

1) The seed brought forth life -- and that is what being saved is.

2) The problem of the root is that there was not fruit.

3) Thus, the one planted on stony ground was saved but unfruitful because it had never "grown in the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ." Eph 4:13

Now take that and apply it to the seed among the thorns -- no fruit because the plant was choked out by the cares of the world. Know any Christians like that? Point being these need "tending," not uprooting.

skypair

 

What you described here, I believe is one of the foundational reasons our churches are in the shape that they are in today. It's called "easy believism". People get this false security that they are saved simply because they prayed the "sinner's prayer". I suspect that if you were to ask everyone in America if they were saved the percentage would be very high that said YES. Yet, there has been no change, no tranformation, no committment to God when you look back over their life. It's all because they have put their faith in a prayer and churches have reinforced that belief with statements such as what you described above.

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13:5 to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 1 John further outlines this "assurance". Unfortunately too many people listen to the words of someone else when it comes to their faith. "Well so and so said I was saved because I prayed and asked Jesus in my heart." It's sad that many churches are more interested in a number of "new converts" than they are in truly discipling converts and nurturing true salvation.


*Sorry to be somewhat off topic, but had to throw this in.... Oh and BTW I'm new here so I guess I should go make an introductory post*

 

I don't believe the stony places were ever saved to begin with. Actually it was the seed that sprung up not the ground, the ground is what received it. The seed is the word
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Look at why they sprung up.

The seed sprung up with out the necessary things of life. It's springing up isn't fully received because it can't with out the knowledge or preperation. Many believe there is a Jesus Christ and many know it's said that He saves men from hell. Yet are not convicted of there sins nor do they repent or submit to Him or commit to following Christ. Just knowing about Christ isn't enough.
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Simply they withered away. Many receive the gospel even believe the gospel but because of a lack of knowledge perish. They never progress to repentance or submission and then trust. These three are signs of growth.
Men must repent and trust in God. How can man wear the righteousness of Christ if He has never heard of it. If he has heard of it, the seed has a root, something to hold on to. How can a man believe when he doesn't know the word. Receiving can mean they listened with egarness and then failed to follow through. Just about every man who is really saved has heard the gospel several times. He has been prepared.
I believe you have confused the seed/word with the man/ground. In short the word sprung up because the man listened but he didn't follow through. The word could not grow and the man heard it no more or at least he didn't have Christ until he had been prepared. Good soil is always prepared to receive.
MB

 

So have I and it always make me feel like I didn't say something right. Only thing I can ad is don't give up on them. Many just aren't ready and the only way to help then are planting more of those same seed until it takes root. Sometimes it never takes root but at least you have given it your best effort.

Accepting the truth of the gospel is only a beginning. It's a process. I have doubts of those who hear a sermon once and claim they are saved but have no further knowledge. I'm always amazed at the ignorance that can be found by long standing members of a church. They show up every sunday and go through all the motions and still haven't got a clue of how to tell there neighbor about Christ.

Amen to the underlined.
I can agree that there is something wrong when men feel they can only be saved by going forward and praying with the pastor as if some how the Pastor will see to it that they are saved. I do believe prayer is needed for repentance, but then I believe we should be praying all the time. I'm reminded of Christ telling the disciples how to pray and perhaps the sinners prayer was originally intended to teach prayer to the new convert. I have a hard time with repeated prayer that someone has you repeat. It leaves doubt about whether or not it's from the heart. Only prayer that is from your heart is really sincere.

I can understand wanting to help those who may not know what they should say. Prayer can be difficult at first for a new convert. Maybe this was it's original intent and it grew from there. You are right about there being no Salvation prayer in the Bible however there is one of confession and repentance and asking to be forgiven. It also correctly acknowledges God. It's called the Lords prayer. In it alone there is believing and all the other ingredients for Salvation.
MB

 

I believe prayer is always necessary. There has to be communication for a relationship to exist. I've seen many go forward and pray and it has changed their lives. Yet most seem to be unchanged. To say it is a needful thing I would have to disagree but on the other hand it seems to work for some. I can't say that it saves, God only knows.
If someone claims Christ hoorah! I'm not in the position to judge whether they are or not publicly. I may have an idea of whether or not they are but it isn't absolutely positive. Simply I would rather just keep my mouth shut about it than be seen as someone who judged someone else unfairly.
I went forward but I had planned to. I was raised in a good Christian home and went to church all my life. I have no doubt that I believed already. For me it was just a matter of acknowledging it with a public confession. It was an emotional experience for me because it simply seemed right that I did it. The reason I had planned it was to submit myself to Christ. I believe I knew I was already saved. I was baptized in the same church. Also an emotional event. The happiest events to be sure.
The Lords prayer for me is an out line of what we should pray. First acknowledging God as the highest. Asking God for our blessings Asking for forgiveness as well as forgiving others and most importantly praise because He is a most wonderful God.
MB

 

Yes, the seed either is "dead and lifeless" in the ground OR "sprouting and growing," right? It is also quite clear that it is the Spirit that brings forth fruit and not the ground. It is also clear that the ground has some NATURAL advantages or disadvantages, right?

Ever seen a poor single mom come to Christ? Did that get rid of her poverty? Or did you find that her poverty sooner or later got the best of her faith just like the seed sown among the thorns?

Not so. In short, the one who "listened but didn't follow through" was the seed by the wayside -- bye-and-bye Satan took away even what little seed/word he had.

I realize many pastors teach it the way that you have fed it back to me. But please reconsider. If life WAS brought forth, that is almost to suggest that we can lose our salvation.

In fact, this interpretation I give is supercritical in understanding what Paul is talking about 1Cor 15:36-38! The seed is actually the new spiritual YOU!

skypair