Slavery and the Bible

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by JohnClay, Feb 7, 2002.

  1. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Here's just a whole lot of information about slavery and the Bible... please feel free to comment on it. Some of it involves me responding to other people's comments.

    ReligiousTolerance.org - an overview of slavery and the Bible

    =======================

    Paul's attitude towards slavery:

    Ephesians 6:5-9:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
    Obey them not only to win their favour when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
    Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Paul NEVER suggests or even hints that slaves should be set free - and he is talking to Christians that would listen to him and might even be faithful enough to become martyrs. In fact, the Bible doesn't tell people to give up slavery... well except from Egypt and Babylon when all of the Israelites were enslaved. But straight after they were set free from slavery, they began taking slaves. And what's the point of having slaves when you have to wander around for 40 years in the desert, and the food is provided by God (manna)? I guess they could gather wood. (But not on the Sabbath)

    Colossians 3:22:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favour, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    So no strikes or protests... just be patient and wait for God to bring miracles, like he did in Egypt and WW2.

    1 Timothy 6:1-2:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.
    Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Titus 2:9-10:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1 Peter 2:18-21:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Paul isn't saying that slavery is unjust suffering - just that slavery involves harsh masters.

    Revelations also mentions slaves, so it seems like God expects slavery to be around until the end of the world... and then the faithful become "slaves of Christ" and worship God a lot while the rest, who are "slaves to sin" will burn in hell. (Revelation 6:15,13:16,19:18)

    Paul's letter to Philemon is a 25 verse book which talks about a runaway slave, Onesimus, who met Paul in prison and then Paul sent him back to his master. He asked Philemon not to punish Onesimus for his crime (including the crime of running away) and treat him well in the future (as a Christian brother but still a slave). The NIV notes say that Onesimus may have stolen from Philemon (verse 18), and the penalty under Roman law for this was death.

    Philemon 1:16:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He is no longer just a slave; he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a slave and as a brother in the Lord.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    So Paul is expecting Onesimus to remain a slave.

    Philemon 1:21:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am confident as I write this letter that you will do what I ask and even more!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Maybe this means that the slave will be fed better or something.
    Paul could have hinted that the slave could be not only forgiven, but also freed. This might be a bad idea economically, but I thought Christianity was about making some sacrifices.

    My comments to someone else on another board:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Paul also told Christians that in Christ:

    "there is neither slave nor free" (Gal 3:28)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    That isn't the whole verse. The whole verse is:

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    So are you saying that Paul literally meant that all people should be treated as equals, at all times?
    If so, they what do you make of 1 Timothy 2:11-15?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-- although if you can gain your freedom, do so.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Here's the NIV text-note:
    "If a Christian slave has an opportunity to get his freedom, he should take advantage of it. In the Roman Empire slaves were sometimes freed by Roman patricians. There is nothing wrong with seeking to improve your condition, but be content with every stage."

    That would mean to try and buy your freedom or win the favour of others so that they can free you. Paul never advocates that slaves should break the law to get their freedom. The only laws he breaks are related to spreading the Gospel.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men." (1 Cor 7:20-23) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    The NLT clarifies the last verse a bit:
    1 Cor 7:23 - "...Don't be enslaved by the world" [Greek: don't become slaves of people]

    Here's the NIV text-note:
    "Christians in all stations of life should realize that their ultimate allegiance is not to men but to Christ, who bought them with his blood (6:20; 1 Pe 1:18-19)."

    You know, it's about being for God vs. being for the world... do you honestly think that Paul is commanding people not to become literal everyday slaves? And who would decide to become a slave anyway? (They would only do it if they were forced to, to repay their debts, etc)

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." (1 Cor 12:13) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Yes, Christians are part of one big family. It doesn't mean that all act as equals in society. If they did, why didn't Paul suggest that people free their slaves. 1 Cor 7:23 only says not to become a slave - it doesn't say not to buy and use slaves.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>These do not sound like sayings from someone that liked the idea of slavery, especially with the connotations that are seemingly implied in this thread. At most, it can be said that Paul was ambivalent toward slavery, with the notable exception of his own slavery to Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Have a look at my comments and think again.
     
  2. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    About racism and the treatment of slaves in the Bible – my response to someone else:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Dictionary of NT Background:
    "Additionally, ancient slavery, unlike modern, was not based on race. Racism and slavery do not necessarily go together, and neither of the two phenomena serves as the exclusive explanation for the other's existence. Comparative material from slavery in the antebellum United States South must be used with control."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Actually, if you look at the OT, it looks like racism is clearly involved. I'm talking about what the Bible actually says, not what some spin doctor says.
    It seems that only foreigners can be slaves - the Hebrews can become servants though they have to work for you (like a contract) but for a maximum of seven years (usually).

    Exodus 21:2-11:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, `I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
    If a [Hebrew?] man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as [Hebrew?] menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her [the Hebrew servant] with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Leviticus 25:39-55:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If one of your [Hebrew?] countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. Do not rule over them [the Hebrew servants?] ruthlessly, but fear your God.
    Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents [non-Hebrews] living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. [implies that harsh treatment of foreign slaves is permitted (see Ex. 21:20-21)]
    If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your [Hebrew] countrymen becomes poor and sells himself [as a servant?] to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. [implies that foreign slaves don't have that right] One of his relatives may redeem him: An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. He [The Hebrew servant] is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.
    Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, for the Israelites belong to me as servants [not slaves]. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Deuteronomy 24:7:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So it is pretty clear that racism is involved.

    So the key point is to notice that sometimes they are talking about slaves, and sometimes they use the word servant.

    Exodus 21:20-21,26-27:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
    If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye. And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So they are clearly different things, and Hebrews aren't allowed to be slaves - only “servants”. Foreigners might be able to be treated as servants though (but this is never suggested)
    Perhaps a better translation for the word translated as “servant” is “a well-treated temporary slave”..
     
  3. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>….However, I *do not* believe that the Bible *supports* slavery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    These are some words from God:
    Deuteronomy 20:10-18:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
    If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you.
    If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
    This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
    However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    So here God is *commanding* them to take slaves. There is a cross-reference with Genesis 9:25 where Ham's descendants are cursed:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>he [Noah] said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But the Bible doesn't say that only Ham's descendants can be taken as slaves - they can come from any nation.
     
  4. Will

    Will
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2000
    Messages:
    502
    Likes Received:
    0
    How odd that every abolitionist group in the U.S. and Europe was founded and run by Christians. In fact the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia has a Bible verse on it from the local abolitionist movement of the time. How odd also that all nations based on Christian morality ultimately banned slavery. What can we say about Islamic states (Sudan, Saudi Arabia) today or secular humanist states today (China, North Korea?) Certainly not the same record.

    It seems someone concerned as you are with slavery would be approaching Muslims and Secular Humanists about their attitude towards slavery. Not Christians, as we don't seem to condone it or advocate it as they do.
     
  5. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H.
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Oldtimer</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    excreationist, welcome to the BB. Since this is your first post, without introduction, we'll forgive you for the leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeengthy posts. But in the future we would appreciate if you'd refrain from it. If you have a question, state it, without lengthy genealogy. It is better to have a link to your comments, provided it is clean from vulgarities and opposing fundamental Christian views. ;)

    We would also like you to visit the Welcoming forum and introduce yourself. We'd like to know who we are facing, who we are responding, and in general what are your interests, belief system, etc. [​IMG]

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
     
  6. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Will:
    Note the thread's title: "Slavery and the Bible". I'm talking about what the Bible says. You're changing the subject. But anyway, I guess I had better address your comments.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How odd that every abolitionist group in the U.S. and Europe was founded and run by Christians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Remember that the theory of evolution was only published in 1859. Then for the next 50 to 80 years, mainstream scientists expressed doubts over the theory. So it would have taken a long time for the general public of the U.S. and Europe to come to believe that the Christian God isn't needed to create the universe. So there would have been mostly Christians involved.

    from Encarta - Early Influences on Abolitionism
    "Black resistance to enslavement, Christian humanitarianism, economic change, and intellectual developments all contributed to the rise of abolitionist movements in European countries—most notably Great Britain—and in the colonial Americas. Black resistance was the most important of these factors. Since the 1500s Africans and persons of African descent had attempted to free themselves from slavery by force."

    Long article - Chronology on the History of Slavery
    quote:
    "Slavery was established, regulated, supported and sanctioned by the Bible. It was a common practice during the time of both the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). It continued into the modern era in many countries around the world. In North America, most slaves were Afro-American. However, others were Caucasian or Native American. An abolition movement began during the late 17th century. It was created and initially supported by: Those denominations which traced their roots back to the Anabaptist movements (Mennonites, Quakers, etc.) A very few other Christians, and groups of Christians Rationalists and other non-Christians.
    ....
    The Abolitionist movement emphasized Jesus' and St. Paul's general statements concerning love, the equality of all persons, and the "Golden Rule" (treating one's fellow humans as one expects to be treated by others). At first, the vast bulk of Christian groups and individuals supported slavery, citing the many Biblical passages as justification. The Abolitionist movement grew slowly, as an increasing percentage of Christians realized that even though slavery was condoned and regulated by passages throughout the Bible, it was profoundly immoral."

    So would you say that the Quakers are true Biblical Christians?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In fact the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia has a Bible verse on it from the local abolitionist movement of the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Do you have a link about that? (Then I'll respond... I can't find any good information about it)

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How odd also that all nations based on Christian morality ultimately banned slavery. What can we say about Islamic states (Sudan, Saudi Arabia) today or secular humanist states today (China, North Korea?) Certainly not the same record.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I'm talking about what the Bible says. BTW, do you have examples of democratic countries that have slaves?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It seems someone concerned as you are with slavery would be approaching Muslims and Secular Humanists about their attitude towards slavery. Not Christians, as we don't seem to condone it or advocate it as they do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I just presented a large number of Bible verses about it. What Christians in modern times have done is irrelevant. I'm talking about what the Bible says.
     
  7. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barnabas:
    excreationist, welcome to the BB. Since this is your first post, without introduction, we'll forgive you for the leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeengthy posts. But in the future we would appreciate if you'd refrain from it. If you have a question, state it, without lengthy genealogy. It is better to have a link to your comments, provided it is clean from vulgarities and opposing fundamental Christian views. ;)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    If I just gave a link then people mightn't read it all. I can't help it if the Bible has a lot of Bible verses that seem to promote or allow slavery. (And racially-based slavery)

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We would also like you to visit the Welcoming forum and introduce yourself. We'd like to know who we are facing, who we are responding, and in general what are your interests, belief system, etc. [​IMG]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Well I'm from the internet infidels boards... I'll probably put more info in my profile about my interests...
     
  8. Will

    Will
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2000
    Messages:
    502
    Likes Received:
    0
    Barnabas,

    The reason the posts by Ex are so long is that he has a lot to cut and paste, I'm sorry I mean say. It's the theory throw a lot at them and something might stick.

    Ex,

    You claim everyone (in Europe and the U.S.) prior to Darwin were practicing (i.e. believing) Christians. Please present your proof of this not your opinion or someone else's cut and pasted opinion.

    You ask for proof of the Liberty Bell, do some research its not so hard to find, I personally don't need any as I've taken the tour and seen and read it firsthand.

    You also ask if any democracies have slavery. Could you please show me any democracies today around the world that didn't come out of the Christian worldview.

    You also say that you don't care how Christians act today about slavery. How very strange, then why are you here talking about slavery? Isn't your concern about slavery and making the world safe from it?

    Shouldn't you direct you attention to Muslims and secular humanists around the world who are actively involved in slavery?

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Will ]
     
  9. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2001
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that excreationist brings up an excellent point about deriving morals from biblical references. In the past parts of the bible have been used as promotions for the "morality" of slavery, racism, subjugation of women, beating of children and many other activities that we would today consider very immoral. Would anyone here advocate any of these? Of course not.

    I don't think that we can, or should, base all of our modern moral principals on biblical references. That's not to say that we can't draw inspriation from the Golden Rule. What would have happened if the American Colonists had followed Jesus' teaching of "render onto Ceaser what is Ceaser's" and simply submitted to paying thier taxes to King George without representation.
     
  10. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    The fact of the matter is that God works within cultures, He does not define them. His Kingdom is NOT of this world. He has allowed all manner of evils in various cultures and still been able to touch and change those individuals within them who want the truth.

    If God were primarily interested in earthly cultures, that would be an enormous waste of His time, as we are sinful creatures and cannot really respond to what is right and good without the new heart He will give those who go to Him.

    Thus slavery, abortion, torture, 'fem-lib,' and the rest of it are all results of 'the wisdom of the world' which is against Christ from the beginning. God is going to be destroying this world and creating a new one according to the Bible, and thus for Him the important point is the heart of each individual, not the circumstances of the culture.

    As far as morality is concerned, to LC, to quote Woodrow Kroll of Back to the Bible, "Everything we do and say has to be judged against some standard. The Bible is the standard given to us by God." Morality must be referenced to something outside of human beings in order for it to be more than opinion and feeling. If there is a reality to morality at all, it must originate in and from God to have any permanent meaning.
     
  11. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    Helen writes,

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The fact of the matter is that God works within cultures, He does not define them. His Kingdom is NOT of this world. He has allowed all manner of evils in various cultures and still been able to touch and change those individuals within them who want the truth.

    Thus slavery, abortion, torture, 'fem-lib,' and the rest of it are all results of 'the wisdom of the world' which is against Christ from the beginning. God is going to be destroying this world and creating a new one according to the Bible, and thus for Him the important point is the heart of each individual, not the circumstances of the culture.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The problem with these paragraphs is that the Bible explicitly says "Thus saith the Lord" in many passages dealing with slavery, stoning children, subjugation of other peoples, etc. We, as new covenant Christians, cannot take all the "Thus saith the Lord" passages literally; else we have a schizophrenic and confused God. He cannot in one place encourage or promote the slavery of human beings and in another place say "there is no slave nor free..." He has one ideal or the other, but both cannot be true.

    Daniel Payne

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: ModerateBaptist ]

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: ModerateBaptist ]
     
  12. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Will:
    You still haven't bothered to keep to the topic "Slavery and the Bible". As I said, I'm talking about what the Bible says.

    In this thread I'm NOT concerned with developments in slavery since after the Bible was written. This thread is about what the authors of the Bible wrote.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Barnabas,

    The reason the posts by Ex are so long is that he has a lot to cut and paste, I'm sorry I mean say. It's the theory throw a lot at them and something might stick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    The reason as stated earlier is that there are a lot of related Bible verses. If I had been talking about the Sabbath, for example, I wouldn't have posted so many verses. And I included my responses to comments by Christians so that I could get those over with straight-away. I mean if I hadn't have posted that part, people would have quoted "there is neither slave nor free", etc, and then I'd just answer in the same way I did before.
    I think it is easier on everyone this way because they can see all the relevant Bible verses, including those used by Christians.
    So do you realize that this is about slavery and the Bible, or didn't anything of this "stick"?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You claim everyone (in Europe and the U.S.) prior to Darwin were practicing (i.e. believing) Christians. Please present your proof of this not your opinion or someone else's cut and pasted opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    The abolition movement begun in the late 1600's and early 1700's I think. Almost everyone would have been Christian. I guess there would have also been a lot of Jews and some Muslims and some other faiths. But those other people would have had enough problems of their own. (e.g. the Jews were persecuted - an example is Martin Luther's work On Jews and Their Lies)

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You ask for proof of the Liberty Bell, do some research its not so hard to find, I personally don't need any as I've taken the tour and seen and read it firsthand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I said I tried looking for information - I can find information about a Liberty Bell in Philadephia that was made in Britain (I think) in the 1700's.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You also ask if any democracies have slavery. Could you please show me any democracies today around the world that didn't come out of the Christian worldview.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Where in the Bible are democracies promoted? In the OT, there are always kings. In the book of Judges though there was a time when "everyone did as he saw fit" (Judges 21:25). In the NT, there were emperors and Jesus says to be other people's servants and Paul talks about how every government (including his current Roman one which had an emperor) was appointed by God and that we must obey them.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You also say that you don't care how Christians act today about slavery. How very strange, then why are you here talking about slavery?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    This is an analysis of the Bible. This is about Biblical history. Well that was the idea when I started this thread, but you keep on changing the subject.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Isn't your concern about slavery and making the world safe from it?

    Shouldn't you direct you attention to Muslims and secular humanists around the world who are actively involved in slavery?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    This isn't about whether slavery is good or bad or whether it is going on today, etc. It is about Biblical history - it is about looking at what the authors of the Bible said. Why do you keep on changing the subject?
     
  13. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
    The fact of the matter is that God works within cultures, He does not define them. His Kingdom is NOT of this world. He has allowed all manner of evils in various cultures and still been able to touch and change those individuals within them who want the truth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    When the Israelites escaped from Egypt, they didn't really have a culture. Then God created a culture for them using the laws given to Moses. Deut 20:10-11 says how God had commanded them to take slaves. He didn't just "allow" them to do this. And what use would slaves be when the Israelites were wandering in the desert for 40 years and they didn't need to farm for food?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If God were primarily interested in earthly cultures, that would be an enormous waste of His time, as we are sinful creatures and cannot really respond to what is right and good without the new heart He will give those who go to Him.

    Thus slavery, abortion, torture, 'fem-lib,' and the rest of it are all results of 'the wisdom of the world' which is against Christ from the beginning.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Why did God command the Israelites to take slaves then?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God is going to be destroying this world and creating a new one according to the Bible,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Yes, where Christians are "slaves to Christ" and God is our Lord and master, rather than a fellow equal.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...and thus for Him the important point is the heart of each individual, not the circumstances of the culture.

    As far as morality is concerned, to LC, to quote Woodrow Kroll of Back to the Bible, "Everything we do and say has to be judged against some standard. The Bible is the standard given to us by God." Morality must be referenced to something outside of human beings in order for it to be more than opinion and feeling. If there is a reality to morality at all, it must originate in and from God to have any permanent meaning.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Well what verses in the Bible condemn slavery? Paul talked about it a lot and yet he never even hinted that people should free their slaves although many Christians at the time were doing more than that - by being martyrs.
     
  14. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,739
    Likes Received:
    4
    Your point is well taken, excreationist. We will begin importing slaves from Australia as soon as possible! - Clint
     
  15. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous:
    ...In the past parts of the bible have been used as promotions for the "morality" of slavery, racism, subjugation of women, beating of children and many other activities that we would today consider very immoral. Would anyone here advocate any of these? Of course not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Well Ken Ham's version of creationism and some denominations such as Jehovah Witnesses support the subjugation of women and physical discipline of children.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't think that we can, or should, base all of our modern moral principals on biblical references. That's not to say that we can't draw inspriation from the Golden Rule.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Then what makes Christian morality different from the morality of other religions? What if people would like to have their sexuality respected - does this mean that homosexuality is ok?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What would have happened if the American Colonists had followed Jesus' teaching of "render onto Caesar what is Caesar's" and simply submitted to paying their taxes to King George without representation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Well let's see what Paul has to say about this:
    Romans 13:1-7:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  16. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
    Your point is well taken, excreationist. We will begin importing slaves from Australia as soon as possible! - Clint<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    [​IMG]
    Ok... but you might have a problem finding volunteers since the Christians might listen to Paul's advice (1 Cor 7:23 - "...do not become slaves of men") and the non-Christians probably like their freedom.
     
  17. JohnClay

    JohnClay
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ModerateBaptist:
    The problem with these paragraphs is that the Bible explicitly says "Thus saith the Lord" in many passages dealing with slavery, stoning children, subjugation of other peoples, etc. We, as new covenant Christians, cannot take all the "Thus saith the Lord" passages literally; else we have a schizophrenic and confused God. He cannot in one place encourage or promote the slavery of human beings and in another place say "there is no slave nor free..." He has one ideal or the other, but both cannot be true.

    Daniel Payne
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I'll just copy and paste what I wrote at the start of the thread (to avoid thinking too hard)

    ==============
    That isn't the whole verse. The whole verse is: (Gal 3:28)
    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    So are you saying that Paul literally meant that all people should be treated as equals, at all times?
    If so, they what do you make of 1 Timothy 2:11-15?
    ========================

    Actually Paul is giving his own advice rather than claiming that God says this...
    But there are times when Paul says he is speaking for God:
    1 Corinthians 7:10-11 - "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]
     
  18. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,739
    Likes Received:
    4
    excreationist stated: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> This is an analysis of the Bible. This is about Biblical history. Well that was the idea when I started this thread, but you keep on changing the subject. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I will attempt to stay on subject.

    Good morning from the US, sir.

    First, let me give you a little background so that you know with whom you are speaking. I am a southerner in this country who lives 6o miles from the final capitol of what we called the Confederacy. I am also a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest denominational sect in this country. This denomination was founded in 1854 on the exact same statements that you offer in your opening posts, so this is nothing new. You are quite correct in your assertion that the New Testament does not directly condemn slavery.

    I am not one to go through contortions to defend my faith. The point you raise is fair and you have certainly met us on our "turf" which I can respect. However, the Christian philosophy, though based in scripture, is more than following a set of rules set forth in a Book. There is an underlying theme and a prevailing attitude in the New Testament of how we are to treat our fellow man.

    You are either familiar with the scriptures or you have exhausted a concordance on the issue of slavery to come to your analysis. I wish to present to you scripture that, though it does not mention slaves in specific, does set forth our "code of conduct," if you will, on our treatment of our fellow man.

    In the Gospel of Luke 10:30 - 37 you will find the story of the Good Samaritan. This is a parable that Christ used to answer a Jewish religious teacher on the question of "who is my neighbor." Christ used a Samaritan because they were considered, by the Jews to be lower even than the Gentiles. I am sure that you are also familiar with the "Golden Rule" found in Matthew 7:12 which states the most basic guide for following a Christian life.

    Also, if you read the letters of Paul and the other New Testament books, there is a prevailing theme of making the church acceptable to the prevailing culture. It is late in the morning but if you like I will find specifics for you at our next meeting. Slavery, at the time of the writing of the New Testament, was a reality in those culture, thus, the proper treatment of slaves was stressed.

    I will point out the short book of Philemon, a book so small that the Bibles ruffle FURIOUSLY when our members are told to reference it in our church. [​IMG] This Book is a letter to a slave owner and in it, Paul is pleading with Philemon to treat a runaway slave named Onesimus as a "dear brother" (verse 16). Granted, Paul does not demand release, but he appeals to his fellow believer's Christian attitude to guide him in his treatment of this man who is considered "property." I would also point to Galatians 3:28 which points to the Christian belief that we are all on an equal footing through Christ.

    I must go, but thank you for a thought provoking topic.

    - Clint

    I know that some of this is re-hash, but it all depends on one's perspective of how they view isolated passages of scripture.

    [ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  19. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Clint, great post!
    Bob
     
  20. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, if you read the letters of Paul and the other New Testament books, there is a prevailing theme of making the church acceptable to the prevailing culture. It is late in the morning but if you like I will find specifics for you at our next meeting. Slavery, at the time of the writing of the New Testament, was a reality in those culture, thus, the proper treatment of slaves was stressed.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If the proper treatment of slaves was pressed by Paul, why does he also instruct slaves to take a beating graciously? It seems to me that a man truly inspired by God's higher ideal of equality would not compromise with the customs of his world.

    Daniel
     

Share This Page

Loading...