Slavery, Submission, and God's Sovreignty

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Mark Osgatharp, Aug 30, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Hear the word of the Lord, oh, ye stiffnecked rebels against God:

    "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.

    And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.

    And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the LORD, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

    Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish."

    And now consider these words:

    "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

    For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."

    If the government makes me your slave there isn't a thing I can do about it, other than submit. If the government orders me to free all my slaves, I have no choice but to do it.

    If the government charges me a 100% tax on my tea and gives me no vote in how the money is spent - tuff! If the government takes half my pay-check every week, all I can do is live with it.

    The powers that be are ordained of God. To resist the powers that be is to resist the power of God!

    That means to do what your government commands, do what your master commands, do what your husband commands, do what your parents command, and, above all, do what your God commands - and like it or lump it!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Helen

    Helen
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    I'm sure Hitler, Pol Pot, and Hussein, among others, would agree with you wholeheartedly!

    Also, it's requested that you reference each of the quotes that you use. Thank you.
     
  3. Tanker

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Mark, it seems to me that you badly misunderstand the verses that you quote. From the text above, the idea is that government generally has a good influence and not an evil influence. If that is the case, then I also approve of the advice to follow the instructions and laws of the government. But the text also makes clear that the advice is based on the assumption that rulers will govern wisely. We know that this is not always the case, and the text offers no advice on how to handle a situation where the ruler has the attributes of Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, etc. For those cases, I think common sense must come to the fore, and each situation should be evaluated on its merits. Your suggestions are absurd for those cases.

    By the way, if you will tell us, please comment on where you were educated. I would like to know what college or university is turning out people with such unusual ideas.
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Yeah, and Nebuchadnezzer too. ;)

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Or a Ceaser or Nebuchadnezzar. [​IMG]

    Whose "common sense" are we going to follow in the matter? Some think "common sense" would dictate slaves to rebel against their lawful masters - but we know the Scriptures explicitly teach otherwise. The only cases where the Scriptures authorize us to rebel against legal authority is when we are commanded to do something immoral or to refrain from doing our Christian duty. In those cases, and those only,

    "we ought to obey God rather than man."

    I graduated from the Missionary Baptist Seminary in Little Rock, Arkansas. Outside of perhaps a casual mention that the Scriptures never condemn slavery per se, I don't recall these matters being discussed. The only thing that makes these ideas "unusual" is the fact that our generation has set the Scriptures at nought.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. gb93433

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    Or a Ceaser or Nebuchadnezzar. [​IMG]

    Whose "common sense" are we going to follow in the matter? Some think "common sense" would dictate slaves to rebel against their lawful masters - but we know the Scriptures explicitly teach otherwise. The only cases where the Scriptures authorize us to rebel against legal authority is when we are commanded to do something immoral or to refrain from doing our Christian duty. In those cases, and those only,

    "we ought to obey God rather than man."

    I graduated from the Missionary Baptist Seminary in Little Rock, Arkansas. Outside of perhaps a casual mention that the Scriptures never condemn slavery per se, I don't recall these matters being discussed. The only thing that makes these ideas "unusual" is the fact that our generation has set the Scriptures at nought.

    Mark Osgatharp
    </font>[/QUOTE]Certainly slavery was a modern issue then. It was something they had to deal with. I don't see that kind of an issue as much diferent today than buying gas at the pump that comes from the Middle East where it is predominately contolled by Muslims. The real issue is not about slavery and other social ills. It is about Christ and the furtherance of the gospel. Just as when we go to work and do what our employer asks. It may not always be the way we like it but because we are servants we do as we are told unless it violates the scriptures. Gos is the one I serve. I am not here to worship man but God. If God is the one I serve sometimes that may mean not doing evil or things that someone wishes me to do. Several years ago I was asked to be present at a business meeting at a gentlmen's club. I told them, "No." I would not submit to that kind of request I don't care who it is. That violates my God and the God who is.
     
  7. Tanker

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    Some of you think that slavery was fine, or that it was not important. I wish that those of you think that could be transported back to the days of slavery and spend a few months as a slave. I have an idea that when you came back to this modern time, you would sing a different tune.
     
  8. Justified

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    "Swing low, sweet..."

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    GB,

    Amen! As Paul told the slaves at Corinth:

    "But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

    Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become circumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

    Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God."

    In other words, our station in life is not what is important. What is important is that we do what God commands us to do.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  10. Terry_Herrington

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    AMEN!
     
  11. KenH

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    1) Slavery is not fine.

    2) Slavery is not unimportant.

    3) Slavery was only one of the issues, and certainly not the most important issue, as to why the Yankees invaded the CSA.

    4) The Yankees were just as racist in their attitudes as the Southerners.

    5) If the CSA had stopped the practice of slavery on the very day the CSA was formed, the Yankees would have still invaded the South.

    God save the South!

    [​IMG]
     
  12. ChurchBoy

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    HenH,

    You just had to get a plug in there for the CSA, didn't you? lol! [​IMG]
     
  13. KenH

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    HenH? Cluck, cluck, cluck. [​IMG]
     
  14. ChurchBoy

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    Oops! Sorry about that KenH! ;) This is the only Christian forum that I'm on that has a time limit on editing a post.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Tanker - Turn around is fair play. Where were YOU educated that you have such a revisionist/politically correct view of "history" and reality? That is sad condemnation against the school.

    19 out of every 20 people in Rome were SLAVES. Slaves in vastly more deplorable conditions than the average slave in Massachusetts in 1800 or in Virginia in 1860.

    Where does Paul condemn this horrible slavery?
    Where do abolitionists call for nations to rise up against Rome for this evil?
    Where does Paul tell Onesimus to follow the north star in the underground railroad?

    BTW, I am a graduate of the University of Wisconsin.

    I will await your answers from the Bible. Mark gave lengthy chapters and verses (and if some are too lazy to look them up, they ARE in your concordance). Show me where he twisted them.
     
  16. Tanker

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    Dr. Bob,

    I graduated from the University of Arkansas. Perhaps you have not noticed the material I posted that calls into question your claim that many thousands of black soldiers fought for the south. So if that is the case, I will give the link to that article here. I posted it in full in another thread. Here is the link:

    http://members.aol.com/neoconfeds/trclark.htm

    The article linked to above shows fairly conclusively that your claim is not correct and is based on what is essentially a racist claim that has arisen in recent years. This claim cannot be supported by any historical information.

    As for Mark's quotation of scripture, some of it was clearly intended to encourage obediance to the powers that be on the assumption that the existing powers are reasonably ethical and moral. But that does not deal with the question of whether or not to obey such people as Hitler or Sadaam Hussein. I would use my own judgment in such cases, on the grounds that the biblical authors may not have forseen such a case. God gave us reason to use, and I think does not require us to regurgitate canned responses from the bible on every issue.

    I must say that I have been shocked by what seems to be support for racist attitudes on your part, such as your use of the term "Black Republican" and also various derogatory terms for the national government during the Civil War. It is even more surprising in view of the fact that you are a native of a northern state. I don't think it is to your credit to use such terms as "scum" to describe the national government at that time. Certainly they were at least as moral as the slave owners of that time, and in my judgment, much more so.
     
  17. Mark Osgatharp

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    Tanker,

    This is the whole reason I got involved in the slavery discussion; not that I have any desire to see slavery resurrected, but that the common attitutde about slavery issue so clearly demonstrates the spirit of rebellion against the word of God, which is reflected in your words. The Biblical authors, both Old and New, not only anticipated but experienced ungodly governmental authority. Notwithstanding, they commanded obedience to those authorities in all cases except when obedience to authority would involve disobedience to God.

    Peter makes it so clear in his statements about slavery that it is absolutely amazing that any many professing allegiance to the Scriptures would continue to argue about the matter. He said,

    "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

    Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  18. Tanker

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    Mark, I must admit I had to turn to the dictionary to look up the definition of "froward". The word seems to be archaic and means, as I suppose you know, someone who is not reasonable. I wonder if this is meant to suggest that slaves should be obedient to all masters, no matter how cruel. Certainly the word does not seem to be that all inclusive, as the word "froward" itself does not imply extreme cruelty, but merely someone who is not reasonable. But whether that admonition is extremely broad or not, I would have to say that slaves faced with an extremely cruel master are perhaps a better judge of the morality of the situation than the author of the biblical injunction. So I would not raise the biblical text to the level of supreme authority in all situations. I suspect you will not accept that view, but then I cannot accept yours that submission to cruel masters is in all cases mandated by the bible.
     
  19. Mark Osgatharp

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    Thanks for your frank admission.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  20. Kent Witcher

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tanker said:
    So I would not raise the biblical text to the level of supreme authority in all situations.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So you basically believe that God couldn't possibly know what to do in all situations since he is author of scripture.

    And you believe that God is not the supreme authority in all situations?

    And that God was wrong about his view on slavery?

    So you're really not a Baptist either then?
     

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