So How Do we decide if principles apply just then, or also for today?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    seems to much of the problem surrounding items such as females in church leadership stems from how to inyerprete whether a principle is just fior that time, or universal...

    How do we decide that?
     
    #1 Yeshua1, Jan 9, 2014
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  2. Jerome

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    Calvin's Institutes 4:10:29-30

     
  3. Yeshua1

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    IF Calvin there is trying to say that Paul views regarding male headship of leadership in local assembly was just accomodating customs of the times, cultural situation, he was wrong, and also that this is NOT a secondary issue, as it strikes right at the current push/agenda to blur sexual distinctions with body of christ!
     
  4. questdriven

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    I really didn't want to get dragged into this discussion, knowing how strongly many feel about it. But here I go. I need to get out of my comfort zone sometimes.

    As far as OT scripture goes, the Bible doesn't necessarily advocate something simply because it was part of the culture at the time. The Bible has instructions on how to treat slaves, but I do not believe owning slaves is part of God's perfect will. And I doubt anyone here would disagree with me on that particular point.
    How to determine? Find out the reasons behind the command and whether those reasons are still in place today or not. The article I linked you to in the other thread attempts to do this and considers multiple possibilities.

    Also, the article's arguments do not center around the culture argument. If you read it you'd know this.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    The truth of the revelation of God in the pauline Epistles though seems to be addressing NOT the issues espoused there, but more that God was establishing a pattern of male leadership that would continue forward into Church age!
     
  6. Jerome

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    Huh?

    Albert Mohler, A Call For Theological Triage and Christian Maturity

     
  7. questdriven

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    Yes, that's the general consensus on Paul's writings in most baptist churches.

    Out of curiosity, have you read through the article and it's analysis of multiple scriptures, as well as the examples it brings up from scripture? It's a well-researched paper and cites it's sources.
    Personally? The idea that women are somehow unfit to lead never made sense to me, and doesn't seem to line up logically or Biblically. Naturally the possibility of there being a different reason behind Paul's instructions on this matter makes more sense.

    This is a difficult and somewhat complex topic, but I think it could be a good discussion. However, if it's just going to be another "us vs. them" thread, I'm just going to have to opt out. In either case, I don't expect to change anyone's mind (or to receive much agreement), so know that I agree to disagree and won't hold it against anyone.
     
    #7 questdriven, Jan 9, 2014
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  8. Zaac

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    That's not the principle. The principle is Godly order. The principles are based in absolute Biblical truth and remain timeless.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Would just suggest that baptism modes are first level categories IF we are talking about baptismal regeneration being involved in the Mode of baptism!

    Also, whether we can apply the principles of leadership in local assemblies based upon those of scripture, or allow culture to dictae, to me rises to first level also!
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    The point is NOT that we are saying that woman are somehow inferior, not mentally stable, not smart enough etc to hold positions of authority in local assemblies, but that even though they are fully equal to men, God has ordained male headship for authority to follow!
     
  11. questdriven

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    Okay. Still doesn't add up to me, and the article's analysis makes more sense.
    If that is all you have to say, I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
     
    #11 questdriven, Jan 10, 2014
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  12. Yeshua1

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    Again, what passages would you use to support female pastor/elder in a local church seeting?
     
  13. questdriven

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    There is scriptural evidence and apparently historical evidence (if I remember correctly) that women held some type of leadership roles in the church. Pastoral roles specifically is a bit more obscure, but I'm pretty sure that's there.

    But right now I'm tired and would like to go to bed. I'll bring all this up later.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    where ein the bible is a female named as eitheer a local pastor/elder though?
     
  15. questdriven

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    I'll bring these to the table later. I'm on my iPod right now, so it's a bit hard to do.
    When my younger teenage brother decides he's done with 12+ hours of gaming I'll be able to use the computer and get you what you're asking for.
     
  16. questdriven

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    (Sorry this took so long. We normally have more than one working computer, and my brother thinks that the other computers not working gives him an excuse to hog the working one.)

    -Priscilla, Romans 16:3-5 Priscilla and Aquila. Paul always mentions Priscilla first in the Greek text. (Apparently the custom at the time was normally to mention the man first.) Acts 18:24-26 has Priscilla and Aquilla correcting the doctrine that a Jewish man named Apollos was teaching.
    -Romans 3:7 mentions Junia, who is referred to as an apostle
    -Lydia led a house church (Acts 16:40) (Although she may not have necessarily led the teaching.) According to the site, two of the main leaders at this church were women named Euodia and Syntyche, although I don't find that in the passage.
    -There are numerous examples in scripture of woman prophets, which I am sure you are aware of. I hadn't thought of it this way before myself, but I Corinthians 12:28 appears to place the roles of apostles and prophets above that of teaching.
    -Colossians 4:15 mentions a church-house run by Nympha. (Although the KJV calls the person Nymphas and refers to him in masculine form. The ESV refers to this person specifically in feminine form. ...interesting. Not sure which is right.)


    Bishop/elders (Below quotes are from this article: http://christianthinktank.com/fem08.html Same site, different article.)
     
    #16 questdriven, Jan 11, 2014
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  17. Yeshua1

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    thanks for your posting!

    Would say that Junia/Junias would be seen as being a man, as only those reaching for female leadership has that name as referring to a female, while that extra biblically history, while interesting, would not support biblical models of leadership , as the early church started to deviate off from the biblical norms and standards relatively early on, see catholic Church!
     
  18. questdriven

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    This page has a few paragraphs at the top dedicated to whether Junia/Junias was supposed to be in the feminine or masculine form, pointing out that the earliest commentaries and (and I believe) mentions in early documents saw it in the feminine:
    http://christianthinktank.com/fem08.html
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    problem is that essentially ALL conservative bible scholars, especially those on translations, did not!
     
  20. questdriven

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    Ah yes, those terrible, evil liberal theologians. I was wondering when you'd bring this up.

    First of all, have you examined this claim? Is everyone I have cited, along with everyone they have cited, a liberal? (Even if they are, I think they make darn good arguments in this case. Liberal doesn't mean automatically wrong.) How do you know that all conservatives are against women holding leadership positions in the church? In fact I'm told there is a branch of the fundamentalists who ordain female pastors.
    Second, what's the definition of liberal theology? I consider myself a conservative theologically (having been raised fundamental and still holding to basic fundamental doctrines such as inerrancy of scripture) and I don't even know. The word "liberal" has several definitions. One definition simply being open to new ideas.
    Third, none of the arguments I have used are incompatible with a conservative, more or less fundamental view of scripture. Else I would not have used them.
     
    #20 questdriven, Jan 13, 2014
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