So Many Mill's???

Do you believe that Satan is literally a great red dragon and literally has seven heads and ten horns(Rev. 12:3)? Do you believe that Jesus literally has a sword coming out of His mouth(Rev. 1:16)? Do you believe that Jesus is literally a lamb and that He literally has seven horns and seven eyes(Rev. 5:6)?

 

That is misrepresentation of contextual literal grammatical historical interpretation and you should know that!!!

The rule is "if the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense." Literal interpretation does not deny figures of speech, allegory, or other literary devices. This common distortion of the literal method is hardly worthy of the level of scholarship you have demonstrated at other points. Of course if that is all you have, I understand why you set up the straw man.

Anyway, Charles made the statement, the challege for some substance was directed back to him.

 

1) Sorry, but actually I don't know that.

2) Who gets to make the decision if the literal makes sense or not?

 

Ken,

Sorry. I wrongly assumed that you had actually read some premil writers such as Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. They very clearly debunk that very common and very argument against CLGH interpretation.

We all make the decision as to whether it makes sense or not, regularly. My contention is that the decision must be made based on comparison with other Scripture, not integration with our theological framework!

Sadly sense is usually determined based more on theological presupposition rather than comparative exegetical study.

 

rjprince,

Most of my knowledge about premillennialism comes from listening to Hal Lindsey's 90-minute weekly radio program from about 1980 through the mid-1990's. Most of my knowledge of amillennialism comes from reading commentaries on Revelation by William Hendriksen and by Ray Summers. I haven't read enough on either postmillennialism or preterism to cite an advocate of either eschatology.

Eschatology was not a major point of emphasis in the 43 years that I was being raised up in and then a member of the Church of Christ denomination.

 

Ken,

Sorry. I assumed you had a deeper background than that. I always try to read the best of both sides. Hendriksen is generally pretty good, though I have some areas of disagreement with him. Have not read Summers. If Hal Lindsey is the sum total of your exposure to premillennialism you are greatly underexposed. In my future responses to you I will try to avoid cynicism and respond with more grace as you learn and grow in the word.

There was a point in my life where I believed that amils and postmils did not really believe all the Bible. I now realize that much of the disagreement is a result of reading the NT back over the OT rather than allowing the OT to serve as the foundation for interpreting the NT. I generally respond to amils and postmils with greater moderation and polemical restraint than I once did.

 

rjprince,

Maybe we should all be simply pan-millennialists: that it will all pan out in the end according to God's plan.

Thank you for your graciousness.

Happy New Year!

 

It will all pan out, no doubt. Yet, I have dedicated my life to the study and teaching of the Word of God. I cannot simply come to an area and say "Well, Godly men have disagreed on this one for many years, so I'll just leave it alone." Nope, I have to dig it out in the Word and faithfully present to the ones entrusted to my watchcare.

Happy New Year to you as well!

 

RJPrince,

I said that a LITERAL hermeneutic applied across the board will yield poor theology. I didn't say literal grammatical historical. I assume you appreciate my implied distinction.

My whole point of study is to know God's word better. I have read alot from all angles - conservative/liberal, protestant/catholic, premill/amill etc. I'm a strange baptist for sure because my opinions are often against the grain.

I do admit that a literal reading of scripture would likely yeild a millenial, arguably a premillenial stance. Two point here:

First that doesn't imply that ALL of scripture suggests millenialism - because many verses suggest a simple translation to heaven. But there are a number of verses (like the one DD mentioned, Mt 19:28) which suggest a millenium. If we chose that position then we interpret the other verses presupposing the existence of a millenium.

Most amills tend to see the verses about a 1000 year kingdom as hyperbolic or symbolic, not because they have to "spiritualize it away" but because they don't see the verses (using a grammatical historical hermeneutic) as intending to imply a literal 1000 year kingdom separate from heaven.

Second, a literal hermeneutic is NOT always the best way. Students in seminary are often taught that if the plain sense makes sense then it should be seen that way. This is very wrong in my opinion. A knowledge of language, culture, history, and theology is necessary to determine how things are best interpreted.

 

"Theistic" evolutionists make the same argument. They say if God didn't use evolution, then why did He leave evidence in the earth's records that He did so. </font>[/QUOTE]HE didn't. The only way you can arrive at that conclusion is to interpret the evidence in light of bad presuppositions. The evidence in the earth's records is consistent with the biblical account of a young earth. That is a poor argument against the words of Scripture.

 

Those things are not the result of a literal hermeneutic. To treat that language normally leads us to understand that symbolic langauge is being used. This is a common misunderstanding that I addressed at length another place. Literal hermeneutics does not deny the usage of figurative language. A literal hermeneutic recognizes the use of figurative language. The literal meaning is the figure of speech. What the literal hermeneutic does not do is make a figure of speech out of literal language, and that is what the amills and post mills must do.

 

I am sorry, Pastor Larry, but I honestly do not believe that I am arguing against the words of Scripture by not believing in premillennialism.

 

But Ken, you did not offer any substantial argument in my thread on the reign of amill theology.

You are anti premill because you think it is materialistic. Can you explain how you arrive at this conclusion?

 

DD,

The heart of premillennialism is a physical kingdom on this physical earth. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that.

I believe that the Bible teaches that we reign with Christ Jesus in Heaven.

 

What the literal hermeneutic does not do is make a figure of speech out of literal language, and that is what the amills and post mills must do.

But Larry how do you know this? Do you assume that only we in the 20th century use idiom? Or that an idiom today must mean the same thing that it did 2000 years ago?

You recognize that Rev 5:6 is figurative because Jesus was God/man but not a sheep or lamb and because he has 2 eyes and no horns. Yet you are so sure that everything else (unless it uses grotesque symbolism) is literal? You admit that symbolic language WAS used (consider Rev 5:6) but YOU get to determine where it is and is not used? This is where study comes in. The message of Revelation is simple - "God's gonna win!" But that doesn't mean that the whole book is unlocked by a fifth grade intellect. To say one can master the theology of Revelation without an understanding of religious mythology and extrabiblical literature is quite presumptious, not to mention foolish.

The Amillers admit this. And we could be wrong, but...

 

KenH

Hope to respond to the literal physcical kingdom thing soon. THE OT IS FULL OF THAT IDEA. It is not something that just popped up in Rev 20. Rev 20 only gives the durataion.

Later.

 

Why did the Jews expect a literal kingdom? Because God promised them one....

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

Jer 23:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Ezek 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

Ezek 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezek 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezek 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

ALL OF THESE WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO DANIEL, THE MINOR PROPHETS, OR THE PSALMS.

 

Conext:1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,

What last days is this reffering? The NT writers tell us:

Heb.1:1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Writer of Hebrews says he lived in the last days.

Acts 2:14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17“ ‘In the last days, God says,

Peter says he was living in the last days.

The last days spoken of are the last days of Old Covenant Jerusalem. Where is your scriptural reference that the last days are in our future?

Is your literal Kingdom 1000 years long? Here it says His government increases forever.

This speaks of the coming of Jesus, not a physical Kingdom.( Matt 1)

The Kingdom was at hand then.

Speaks again of the coming of Christ. The first time.

Physical Kingdom? You are reading alot into that passage.

More pre-suppositions.

Back to Matt 1.

New Covenant age see Jer 31:31

More New Covenant descriptions.

Literal Physical Kingdom? Literal Physical David?

What of verse 18? Is it future as well?

Does God not tabernacle with His people now? (Eph 2:21)

Future? What if there is no Jewish Race?

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)
'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism. In fact, one is defined a Jew by legal dispensation or coercion, with race playing no part at all:

Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

H.G. Wells
"There can be little doubt that the scattered Phoenicians in Spain and Africa and throughout the Mediterranean, speaking as they did a language closely akin to Hebrew and being deprived of their authentic political rights, became proselytes to Judaism. For phases of vigorous proselytism alternated with phases of exclusive jealousy in Jewish history. On one occasion the Idumeans, being conquered, were all forcibly made Jews. There were Arab tribes who were Jews in the time of Muhammad, and a Thrkish people who were mainly Jews in South Russia in the ninth century. Judaism is indeed the reconstructed political ideal of many shattered peoples - mainly Semitic.... The main part of Jewry never was in Judea and had never come out of Judea" (The Outline of History, p. 505).

 

Grasshopper,

"Last days" includes the first coming, the second coming, the kingdom, and the eternal state! ALL OF JOEL 2 was not fulfilled at Pentecost, but Pentecost was a partial fulfillment of Joel 2, just like the ministry of Jesus at His first coming was a partial fulfillment of Isa 61:1-2. The refs you cited were certainly in the last days, but there is more to come, unless you allegorize it all away!

H.G. Wells? You have got to be kidding! Anti-semitism is found in many forms in many different "authorities". Maybe we should start reading Britannica instead of the Bible. God knows who the Jews are, even though Britanica et. al. may not.