so there may be unicorns, but Cockatrices?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Forever settled in heaven, Aug 13, 2003.

  1. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    now that we're almost done w Unicorns, next up ...

    KJB: Jeremiah 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which [will] not [be] charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

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    how'bout em cockatrices?
     
  2. BrianT

    BrianT
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    Don't forget those satyrs!

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  3. Johnv

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    The word in Hebrew is tsepha, which means "viper" (as in snake).

    How they got a cockatrice out of a viper is beyond me :eek: .
     
  4. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian
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    My my,the levels some will go to in order to make people doubt the word of God(KJB).Gettin pretty desperate dont you think? :rolleyes:
     
  5. Johnv

    Johnv
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    No one doubts the Word of God. Just the KJV.
     
  6. Jim1999

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    A long time ago when the Earth was green,
    There was more kinds of animals then you've ever seen.
    And they'd run around free while the world was being born.
    The loveliest of all was the Unicorn!


    There was green alligators and long necked geese,
    Hump back camels and chimpanzees.
    Cats and rats and elephants but sure a you're born,
    The loveliest of all was the Unicorn!


    But the Lord seen some sinnin' and it caused him pain.
    He says, "Stand back, I'm gonna make it rain.
    So hey, Brother Noah, I'll tell you what to do.
    Go and build me a floating zoo.


    You'll take two alligators and a couple of geese,
    Two hump back camels and two chimpanzees.
    Two cats, two rats, two elephants but as sure as you're born,
    Noah, don't you forget my unicorns!

    Of course there are unicorns! Ask any Irishman.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. Ransom

    Ransom
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    MV-neverist said:

    My my,the levels some will go to in order to make people doubt the word of God(KJB).Gettin pretty desperate dont you think?

    No one doubts the Word of God, just the questionable choice by the translators to include mythological beasts better suited to a Harry Potter novel than the Bible. Unicorns and cockatrices indeed.

    Prove us wrong. Show us a real-live, true-to-life cockatrice, satyr, or unicorn. (And remember, the translators knew what a rhinoceros was . . .)
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    I thought a cockatrice was only a symbol in heraldry. That would have been a common word in 1611, and they would have known what it meant.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    Supposedly there was a cockatrice found in the vault of a chapel dedicated to Saint Lucea during the time of Pope Leo the Fourth (847 to 855.) The breath of this cockatrice fouled the air, and caused many deaths in Rome
     
  9. timothy 1769

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    and if you think that's funny, get a load of this!

    Revelation 9
    7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

    not to mention the talking snakes and donkeys. woohoo!

    --

    i've always assumed cockatrice meant "snake demon" and satyr "goat demon". perhaps i'll pull down my OED and do a word study...
     
  10. timothy 1769

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    cockatrice


    \Cock"a*trice\ (-tr[imac]s; 277), n. [OF. cocatrice crocodile, F. cocatrix, cocatrice. The word is a corruption from the same source as E. crocodile, but was confused with cock the bird, F. coq, whence arose the fable that the animal was produced from a cock's egg. See Crocodile.] 1. A fabulous serpent whose breath and look were said to be fatal. See Basilisk.

    That bare vowel, I, shall poison more Than the death-darting eye of cockatrice. --Shak.

    2. (Her.) A representation of this serpent. It has the head, wings, and legs of a bird, and tail of a serpent.

    3. (Script.) A venomous serpent which which cannot now be identified.

    The weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice's

    Note: [Rev. Ver. basilisk's] den. --Is. xi. 8.

    4. Any venomous or deadly thing.


    Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
     
  11. timothy 1769

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    kjv
    29   Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent

    nasb
    29   "Do not rejoice, O (1) Philistia, all of you, Because the rod that (2) struck you is broken; For from the serpent's root a (3) viper will come out, And its fruit will be a (4) flying serpent.

    woohoo! a FLYING serpent! this just gets better and better!
     
  12. Ransom

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    So, Timothy, what you are saying is that the KJV translators could have said "serpent" instead of "cockatrice"? And presumably they could have said "wild bull" if they meant that, instead of "unicorn."

    And yet they opted in both cases for the name of a mythical fantastic beast that never existed.

    Why would that be?
     
  13. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian
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    Comparing the Holy Bible to a necromancing soothsayer;nice going,read Titus 2:5;Matthew 13:21;and Mark 4:17.


    Why? "1 Corinthians 1:27
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" That's why!
     
  14. Ransom

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    MV-neverist said:

    Comparing the Holy Bible to a necromancing soothsayer;nice going,read Titus 2:5; Matthew 13:21; and Mark 4:17.

    OK, I will . . .

    . . . OK, I did. And the relevance of these spoof-texts is . . . ?

    Since you don't have any pertinent Scriptures to post, I take your response as a lot of bluster and a reluctant concession that my point is valid. Thank you.

    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;

    Yes, but that's just the point, isn't it? Unicorns and cockatrices are not "of the world." Narnia, maybe, or Hogwarts. But in this world, they are fantasy creatures, and the KJV translators would have known it.

    That's why!

    You gotta laugh.

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  15. Bartholomew

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    OK, hands up everyone who's ever seen a Leviathan! You know, a sea creature whose skin can't be pierced by any weapon, and which breathes fire. Oh yes, which BREATHES FIRE! What, none of you have seen it? Well then, you are left with only one conclusion: THE BIBLE MUST BE WRONG!!! :( The depths to which some of you guys sink to try to discredit the Authorised Version sickens me. :(

    Job 41
    1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
    2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
    3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
    4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
    5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
    6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
    7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
    8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
    9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
    10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
    11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
    12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
    13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
    14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
    15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
    16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
    17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
    18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
    19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
    20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
    21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
    22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
    23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
    24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
    25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
    26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
    27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
    28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
    29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
    30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
    31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
    32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
    33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
    34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
     
  16. BrianT

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    The lengths to which some of you guys go to to try and *defend* every single word in the KJV amazes me. [​IMG]

    So you believe in satyrs, and that a Jew (Isaiah) writing 700 years B.C. had a creature from future Greek mythology in mind?
     
  17. Anti-Alexandrian

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    Likening the word of God to a Harry potter book is getting pretty desperate;folks will do anything to reject final authority.

    Question.If you dont belive that unicorns and satyrs are real,what are you going to do with Revelation 9? It is full of deformed monsters nad animal mutations;what are you going to do with that? Bible believers?? Hardly.
     
  18. Anti-Alexandrian

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    That is what we call being a Bible believer;I believe it from cover to cover,and NO amount of discounting it,or doubting on your part will change my mind.

    If the Bible says it,that settles it.What about it bible believer?
     
  19. RaptureReady

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    That is what we call being a Bible believer;I believe it from cover to cover,and NO amount of discounting it,or doubting on your part will change my mind.

    If the Bible says it,that settles it.What about it bible believer?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen and Amen!
     
  20. Jim1999

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    Sometimes we take certain versions of scripture too seriously, and we end up with poor understanding of what the text means.

    Context is everything. Culture is important. Perhaps, the author of Isa 11 is simply conveying the message that the child will touch, with his hand, the den of danger. Stop right there. Don't take it where it does not go.

    To the translators, the word "cockatrice" best conveyed this message for its meaning in heraldry. We don't think a lot about heraldry these days, but in the 1600's they did.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     

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