Socialism anyone?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ps104_33, Feb 8, 2009.

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  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    The "S" word has been bandied about alot lately especially by the Republicans when describing this recent stimulus bill. I am talking about "socialism". It seems that the democrats are ashamed of this label. Why? Lets face it. This country has been slowly sliding in a direction of Keynesian socialism long before this. A little here and a little there implemented by Republicans as well as Democrats but more by Democrats. We all benefit in some way by a little socialism now and then. Maybe an unemployment check, government grant for college tuition, social security check, social security disability, welfare check, WIC, food stamps, minimum wage, SCHIP program, public education etc. My questions are these:

    What is the difference between the Democrat Party and the Socialist Party? And why are they ashamed of being labeled Socialists? And cant most Americans admit that they really want a Socialist form of government?
     
  2. Jim1999

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    I think the problem is that Americans essntially have a phobia about the word "socialism" which equates with McCarthyism and communism.

    Every political system has its faults, and we tend to dwell on the faults rather than the benefits.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    While his tactics were wrong McCarthy's philosophy was right. Socialism/communism should not be tolerated. I have asked more times than 10 what philosophy from the US communist party does the Democrats not hold to. I have yet to receive an answer. The real answer is none.
     
  4. Palatka51

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    I think the problem is that Americans essentially have a phobia equating "socialism" with the likes of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Dung et al. During the McCarthy era there was covert activities by the enemies of capitalism and free society. Joseph McCarthy and his committee on unAmerican activities went about exposing them wrong but the threat was and still is real.
     
  5. Ps104_33

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    Half of the voting public in the United States voted for Obama. Are they voting for Socialism? Are Americans expecting Socialism to produce the same affluence that most enjoy in a Capitalist system?
     
  6. Palatka51

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    Yes I think that we are at the turning point where the citizenry are voting for padding their pocket books.
     
  7. Ps104_33

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    But they are being duped if they think socialism will pad their pocketbooks. The United States has been and still is the most affluent society in the world because of Capitalism, not Socialism.
     
  8. dragonfly

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    It's been the corporate heads who have been "padding their pocket books" for years off the work of the middle class. It's one thing to highly reward a CEO for good leadership, but the packages given to these corporate giants are shameful.
     
  9. Palatka51

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    I can't say that I totally disagree. However, government has no jurisdiction in such matters. CEOs and Corporations left alone will correct themselves.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    This is communism pure and simple.
     
  11. Jim1999

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    We aren't doing so badly in Canada for a socially democratic country. At least we don't lose or homes because we fall ill. We have relevant freedom, a free vote and fair exchange for our taxes.

    Sweden isn't doing so badly either and they are more socialistic than is Canada.

    You are prolly more socialistic in the USA than you care to admit. Even your socialistic unions have learned to milk the system democratically,,,,as have our unions.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Really? Doesn't look so good from here



     
  13. Jim1999

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    Yep, an a chap was floated between hospitals in Detroit until the ambulance could find a hospital that accepted no insurance. He died.

    My daughter in Georgia, a doctor with insurance, had to pay an additional $200.00 to have her daughter checked out!

    My daughter had first child in Canada and it cost nothing! She had second child in Wisconsin an it cost $500.00...Pretty cheap.

    We can always cite cases. I have had four strokes, was treated instantly and it cost me not a penny. I can't afford to come to visit the USA cos it would cost me $250.00 per day for insurance and no guarantees!

    One woman n my town had a husband die in a Pennsulvania parking lot It took two weeks and ten thousand dollars to get his body back to Canada.

    So don't give me the cry baby garbage. Both sides have severe faults. The difference is, we don't lost our homes because we become ill.

    Want to hear more garbage...You can fol some people, but my daughter practices within the system.......and it ain't so pretty, mate..It ain't all roses, but it sure costs.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Palatka51

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    What are your sources Jim? RevM gave great source material to back up that claim. You have only put forth personal conjecture.
     
  15. Jim1999

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    Sorry, I don't bury my nose in the news rags all day to dig up the dirt. I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not. I know what it is like here, and I plan to stay.

    I'm sure you can find them on the net

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. Ps104_33

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    There is no point in arguing with Jim. He is a proud Canadian.
     
  17. Ps104_33

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    [​IMG]

    Canada - Just another example of how Socialism WORKS!



    But does it really work?Just Society: Pierre Trudeau started the Canadian cause for a society where no one "should be entitled to superflous or luxury goods until the essentials of life are made available to everyone", which set the tone for modern day Canada, in spite of the policy's devastatingly Socialistic after-effects.

    one of the strongest social safety nets in the world: Welfare is widely defrauded by citizens as well as new immigrants, with hard-working Canadian citizens paying for every cent. While certain provinces, such as Ontario, have taken steps to eradicate fraud (and to get capable workers back into the workforce), these policies have been widely criticized as �violations of human rights.� As it stands right now, a person fully capable of working can remain on welfare for their entire life, if they so choose.

    efficient and provides excellent service to everyone: The inefficiency of government control has resulted in outrageous waiting lists for services such as cancer treatment. Waiting lists for cancer treatment are considerably longer than the American average and �the times are also longer than what radiation oncologists consider to be the medically acceptable maximum� (Fraser Institute). Furthermore, in 1999, over 120 people were removed from the coronary by-pass surgery waiting list in Ontario because they had been on it so long, they were so unhealthy that they would not survive the surgery anyway. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has also ranked Canada low for the availability of MRI and CT scanners although Canada ranked fifth for health care costs. Similar problems plague almost every area of the system.

    user fees: The majority of Canadians choose to believe that more government funding is the answer to health care problems. Most Canadians refuse to even entertain the idea of user fees, which even Sweden has implemented as part of the answer to dealing with patients who go to the doctor for every sniffle or cough.

    Canadian economy: The Canadian rate of productivity, which is directly connected to the standard of living in a nation, continues to slow, particularly in comparison to the United States. The high Canadian tax rate discourages business growth and investment and our high level of debt (which owes great thanks to Trudeau�s massive expansion of social services in 1970�s) has contributed to the low value of the Canadian dollar.

    best and brightest to come to Canada to work: The chief executive of one of Canada�s top high-tech companies said it best when he said, �we sure have not created an economic climate to keep our top talent ... and wealth creators here for the coming century� (John Roth, CEO of Nortel). The low value of the Canadian dollar, the ability of American companies to adequately pay for highly-skilled workers, and the high rate of taxation has led to a �brain drain.� As Roth said, �the top marginal tax rate in the United States just moved from $283,000 to $285,000. Canada's top rate starts at $65,000 Canadian, or $42,000 U.S. So in Canada, you are wealthy at $42,000 U.S. In America, you're wealthy at $285,000 U.S."

    redistribution of wealth: Hardly a fair system. The provinces of Ontario and Alberta are the only net contributors to the economy of the country and are punished for this by having their wealth taken. Despite being morally wrong, this system of �taking from the rich to give to the poor� is rife with flaws. A family in Alberta with a household income of $30,000 - $40,000 will pay out over $3000 for equalization payments, while a family in the province of Newfoundland which has a household income of over $100,000 will receive over a $1000 in benefits. Furthermore, these equalization payments have not led to economic development in the areas receiving them, ensuring that the system will never end.

    supports labour unions: Canadian law has given labour unions the right to force people to join as a condition of employment, in violation of the right to freedom of association.

    the concept of rehabilitation and human rights: There is no system of consecutive sentencing in Canada, resulting in such recent cases as the five year sentence given to a man who had a large role in the 1985 Air India bombing which killed 329 people. Many Canadian police officers have become frustrated as people convicted of such crimes as break and enter are routinely let off with light probation.

    Charter of Rights and Freedoms: While the Charter seems to defend such basic rights as �freedom of expression,� its preamble enshrines religious values (�Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law�) rather than a separation of church and state which any free nation should have. This allows for the continued public funding of Catholic schools, which even the UN has declared is a violation of civil rights.

    More important, Section 33 of the Charter has the infamous �notwithstanding clause� which allows for any provincial government to violate fundamental freedoms if they pass an act of Parliament. This has most famously occurred in Quebec to violate the rights of non-Francophones.

    world�s strongest democracies with an accountable government: There is no limit to how long any Canadian politician, including the prime minister, can stay in power. The British-style Parliamentary system allows for a party to form a majority with only 40% of the popular vote. Furthermore, the West in particular does not get an adequate vote, a problem which had contributed to the Western Separation movement. In addition, Jean Chretien�s �reign� as Prime Minister has been marked by patronage appointments, scandal and corruption, in which billions of dollars have been misappropriated. He has centralized the power of Parliament within the Prime Minister�s Office and maintains strict controls over his fellow Liberal Party members to prevent dissent. Amongst the critics of his government, he has been called �The Friendly Dictator.� Even the leader of the Canadian citizen�s group Democracy Watch, who has co-written a book with ultra-socialist Ralph Nader, does not consider Canada a democracy any longer due to the centralization of power.
     
  18. paidagogos

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    Capitalism or Socialism?

    Of course, it's ironic that the some of the biggest capitalists, the American automakers, are in line to receive their government handouts. Capitalism is as much the enemy of liberty and the middle class as socialism. By limiting the choices, socialism or capitalism, we have been deluded into accepting the lesser of two evils. Why do we have to accept evil at all? There is a third choice--free-market economics based on moral and ethical principles as well as the ownership of property, economic freedom, and retention of the fruits of one's own labor.

    Modern capitalism had its impetus in Social Darwinism and the rationalism of the 19th century. In our stand against Communism of the post-WWII era, we were led astray in believing that some form of socialism, either Communism or Fabian Socialism, or capitalism were our only choices. Conservatives embraced capitalism as the only bulwark against godless Communism or creeping socialism. Our thinkers and conservative leaders did not see a third choice or the difference between a moral/ethical free-market economics and capitalism based on the competition and survival-of-the-fittest of Social Darwinism.

    Both capitalism and socialism are trends to centralization and concentration of power. Socialism and capitalism are competing systems but they are not opposite systems. They are both dominating and controlling economic systems. It is simply a matter of public versus private control. It is a question of which master we serve--the socialist state or the corporate-state. Although capitalism is promoted as encouraging entrepreneurship and diversity through competition, it is actually the opposite. This occurs only after a technological break-through or after deregulation as happened in the last half of the 20th century where there was both the deregulation under Reagan and the computer revolution. The Reagan and computer revolutions sparked great diversity and economic startups in the new technology and the deregulated economies. Then, the capitalistic march toward the corporate state and centralization began with companies swallowing companies in the merger-buyout feeding frenzy . The cannibalistic LBO was born. Look and see for yourself. For example, there are fewer software companies today marketing operating systems than in the 1980's. Capitalism is marching toward centralization of power and wealth in the hands of the few. IMHO, we are in the end times of consumer capitalism with a major restructuring of some fundamental economic entities. (BTW, the driving forces of capitalism, greed and competition, are never sanctioned by Scriptural teachings anymore than the regulated, forced "charity" of socialism.)

    Sometimes, we must think for ourselves and surprisingly find things to be different from what we have been taught. What do you think?
     
  19. gb93433

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    Ever notice how many rich folks are on the handout end of grants and programs?
     
  20. gb93433

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    I think is a great idea but what church has done it? If churches cannot do it, then what makes one think it can happen with people who have other things in mind?
     
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