Sole Fida / OSAS challange

I am not OSAS, but was raised sola fide. Like you, I'm seeing some problems with it lately. I hope that if you don't have the debate here on the forum, you'll at least make it available to others to read afterward, as I would be interested in reading it.

Brian

 

I'd like to know what it is you see that is shaking your faith in OSAS/Sola Fide?

 

Yelsew, they call it the Bible.

 

I am not a believer in OSAS either.

What do you propose?

Bob-

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.

Once saved, always saved--unless you believe that you yourself are somehow able to pluck yourself out of God's hand.

Or you don't hear His voice in the first place.

 

Funny you put it like that Don, because that is exactly right. God can't force us to stay in his hand, to do so infringes on free-will. If he forces us to stay in his hand then we are no longer sons to the Lord but rather slaves to the Lord.

 

WELL SAID Justified Saint!

 

We hear His voice AND His spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God (Romans 8).

But having "assurance" of salvation is not the same as OSAS.

OSAS says that the Matt 18 illustration of "Forgiveness revoked" is "impossible".

It says that the Galations 5 point of "falling from grace" could never happen.

It says that those who are IN the vine (as in Romans 11) could never have been "cast out" - even though Romans 11 (and John 15) say some of them were.

It says that all the texts about "persevering" are only valid IF they say "IF you are Saved then you ARE persevering and WILL persevere firm until the end".

But that is not in fact - what the texts warn us about.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ooops! Sorry.

I vote - "no extra-biblical sources" nothing outside the "66".

The reason is because the OSAS guys are likely to reject it - AND going outside the 66 makes it "appear" that you can't make your case sola scriptura. So "even if your doctrine was right" you would have discredited it by going outside the Bible. And in this case - there is no need to do that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Don:
You are correct. The Bible teaches men are able to pluck themselves out of his hand. The Bible says in John 6;66-71,66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71  He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
I thought Jesus had a good grip on them. John 10:28.

 

Ah, but Frank: If they actually heard His voice in the first place, they would follow it, and not stray away from it, now would they? John 10:27

 

Frank,

You said, 'The Bible says in John 6;66-71,66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.'

Ray is saying, 'Demas walked away from his ministry under the Apostle Paul's guidance, but did this mean that from his lofty station in life, that he then went to Hell? No.

Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve apostles [Matt. 10:4] but this did not mean that he was saved and a true disciple. The Bible says that he was a devil from the beginning.

I believe your reference above took place before the church age when the Spirit was outpoured on all saved people. The indwelling of God the Spirit is our promise from the Lord God. There is no where under this 'better covenant' [Hebrews 8:6] that the Bible says that the Holy Spirit leaves a saved soul.

We are told that there was an intratestamental period of perhaps 600 years, from the close of the last of the prophets through the ministry of John the Baptist. Then Jesus gathered his disciples and most of His disciples were filled with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles received it earlier, with the exception of Judas.

 

The apostles received it earlier, with the exception of Judas.

Correction. 'The apostles received Him {the Holy Spirit} earlier, with the exception of Judas.'

 

I believed it up until recently. Rereading James 2 a couple dozen times, taking it at face value, has caused me to reevaluate. I'm too new to this to debate against sola-fide, but I am very interested in reading a formal debate by someone else. About OSAS, to be honest I'm burnt out on that issue, and not up for a formal debate on the subject. Again, I'd read someone else's debate though.