Some questions for anti-calvinists #1

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by TCassidy, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    I am going to ask the anti-calvinists 5 questions regarding what Calvinists believe. I ask that the anti-calvinists answer the questions honestly. Don't answer the question you wished I had asked, and don't change what I said into something you wish I had said, but just answer the question asked. And no name calling, or false accusations of not being saved or not being as spiritual as you, or not understanding their bibles. Just a simple Yes or No answer. Then, based on those answer we will carry on an honest, civil, gentlemanly (and lady like) discussion. If you can't bring yourself to do that please stay out of the discussion. Thank you.

    1. Calvinists believe in Total Depravity. By Total Depravity they don't mean that every lost person is a bad as he could possibly be, but that every lost person has been affected by the fall in all three areas of his being. He is fallen in body, soul, and spirit.

    Do non-calvinists believe there is part of a man, either body, soul, or spirit, that was not affected by the fall and is still good enough to come to Christ on its own good merits?

    Yes or No.

    [ April 10, 2005, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: TCassidy ]
     
  2. Wes Outwest

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    No correct answer!

    "on its own good merits" denotes works, and salvation is not of works.

    If "on its own good merits" were not part of the question, then my answer is YES! We are made in the image of God and we do have the inherent power to come to Christ, He gave it to us. He also gave us His authority to do so. "Come unto me all ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest!" He could have said, "sit tight, I'll get to you in a moment" but he said "Come unto me" declaring that we can, sinner or saint!
     
  3. TCassidy

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    Still no honest answers, I see. I hope tomorrow one or two of the honest anti-calvinists will answer the questions.
     
  4. icthus

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    TCassidy, here you go again, asking those foolish questions. The way you word them, is as though you suppose all non Calvinists are liberal in their theology. How wrong
     
  5. whetstone

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    while tcassidy's question is rather clumsily worded, it got me thinking: non-calvinists do not say that the will isn't corrupt- they just say that Christ enabled their wills on calvary. Calvinists say Christ enables our wills when he draws us to salvation. So i guess my question is: can you show me evidence that Christ enabled the wills of all men on calvary?
     
  6. icthus

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    Whetstone, your questions are just a bad as TCassidy. What of all this "enabling of wills"? The fact of the matter is, that to have a free will is to have the ability to chose between two or more options. Hence we read in Scripture, "choose this day whom you will serve"; "choose life", "come unto me", "if you seek the Lord"; all such questions that were asked to everyone, and could only be done so if humans possess a free will to either accept or reject.
     
  7. Timtoolman

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    no, already anwered this on other board. If God had not sent the Christ then man would be lost. He could not will himself to be saved or will God to save him. You see it was totally of God's choice and not man. If He had not sent the Christ then man's choice would be hell only.
     
  8. whetstone

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    Whetstone, your questions are just a bad as TCassidy. What of all this "enabling of wills"? The fact of the matter is, that to have a free will is to have the ability to chose between two or more options. Hence we read in Scripture, "choose this day whom you will serve"; "choose life", "come unto me", "if you seek the Lord"; all such questions that were asked to everyone, and could only be done so if humans possess a free will to either accept or reject. </font>[/QUOTE]I think you get the impression that Calvinists deny the existence of man's will. We do no such thing (I want you to realize). We simply acknowledge that we only have as many choices available to us as God allows- and of those choices, God draws our wants to accomplish His will. As for shying away from what I was saying about enabling the will- you deny the very thing you believe because I have worded it in a way you don't like. Perhaps I will reword it?

    You claim that because Christ died on the cross, all men are then able to accept him.

    This means that Christ has opened the door of every man's will by shedding his blood. Correct?

    That is essentially the exact same thing the Calvinist believes- except we believe Christ has only opened the door of the elect's wills, and this opening happens when the Holy Spirit draws that person. This makes sense as only the elect excersize their wills to accept Christ. Can you truly say you would have chosen Christ without him first chosing you? If so, you are a better man than I, for I know if God had not first come to me, I would never have gone to Him.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    There is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see!
     
  10. JackRUS

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    That's good Cass, you would make a good lawyer.

    "Please answer the question yes or no. Did you stop beating your wife yet?" [​IMG]

    BTW, your question has less than nothing to do with the debate.
     
  11. TCassidy

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    The difference being that anyone who cares to be honest can answer my question with a simple "yes" or "no."
    I was not aware you were the debate police who passed judgment on the questions and those who ask them.

    The question is a good starting place to get an honest and sincere discussion going. Unfortunately it would seem that most of the anti-calvinists on the forum don't want honest and sincere discussion, but would rather engage in personal attacks and name calling.
     
  12. TCassidy

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    No. I do not believe there is any part of man that was not affected by the fall and there is nothing about man that would be good enough to earn merit with God.

    Simple question and a simple answer.
     
  13. terriloo

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    As I posted on another topic,
    I believe that God is COMPLETELY omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent--and that He can do anything He so chooses....but that He CHOSE to give us free will and CHOSE to allow us to execute it fully and completely as WE choose. Since ALL CREATION was created by Him and speaks of Him, there is a natural (as in "God-created") yearning inside of us DESPITE the Fall--NOT out of any remaining "goodness" in us, but simply because GOD DESIGNED US THAT WAY....so that we WOULD "miss Him" and search for Him, even when we know not what it is we seek.
    And again I ask (thanks padre for YOUR answer previously), based on THIS point, am I truly arminian? Partially calvinist? Where do I fit on the sliding scale?
    Thanks.
     
  14. padredurand

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    No.

    I can't speak for all of them, just myself.
     
  15. rsr

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    No. Though I do not consider myself an anti-Calvinist, but an unconvinced one.

    "I always did for between these thirty and forty years clearly assert the total fall of man and his utter inability to do any good of himself; the absolute necessity of the grace and Spirit of God to raise even a good thought or desire in our hearts; the Lord's rewarding no work and accepting of none but so far as they proceed from His preventing, convincing, and converting grace through the Beloved; the blood and righteousness of Christ being the sole meritorious cause of our salvation."

    — John Wesley, Letter to John Fletcher, 1771
     
  16. TCassidy

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    Well, we now have 4 answers to the question and all 4 people answered "no."

    That is very good. We have determined that the 4 who answered are not Arminian regarding the depravity of man.

    So far so good. And thank you, gentleman, for your honest and sincere answers without adding a lot of political spin. [​IMG]
     
  17. Timtoolman

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    TC I think the difference is that I believe man can make a choice, man must make a choice. God has given all mankind that ability. I feel that calvinst make it sound like sinful man is oblivous to God and vice a versa. I don't see that in scripture. In fact I see that man can respond to the gospel.
     
  18. TCassidy

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    I agree. But man, due to the condition of his heart (Jeremiah 17:9) will always make the wrong decision regarding Christ due to the enmity in his heart against God caused by the fall. In fact, everything the lost man does is sin (Proverbs 21:4 and Isaiah 64:6).
    That is where we disagree. The only way to give mankind that ability is to overcome the sin nature and restore the capacity for spiritual things and that is what regeneration does. If all men have that capacity then, by definition, all men are regenerated.
    Sinful man is at enmity with God (Romans 8:7) and can not, and will not, come to Christ (Romans 3:11). However, God is not oblivious to lost man. The gospel call goes out to all men every where (Mark 16:15) and God commands all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30).
    See the above scripture.
    Yes, by the grace of God man can come to Christ as a result of the drawing of the Father (John 6:44).

    Good discussion. Thank you for being honest and Christ-like in talking about this difficult issue. [​IMG]
     

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