Something I noticed about pentacostals

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Chemnitz, May 16, 2002.

  1. Chemnitz

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    Having studied the pentacostal theology for the past year, I have come to a conclusion on their model for salvation. They basically follow the model for salvation that the Medieval Catholic Church taught right up to Vatican II (It may be I, I can't remember when they made the switch to Aquinas's via antiquia). Some of our RCC friends might recognize this medieval teaching as Ockham and Biel's via moderna. Which in its simplest form means you do your best to do good works then you recieve Baptism and the Holy Spirit and then you do good works in grace to earn justification.

    Now the fundamental flaw with this doctrine is the belief that good works earn your salvation, because you did enough good works to earn the Holy Spirit. Which brings me to the Pentacostals, they believe that by repenting and leading a "holy" life they can call down the Holy Spirit and therefore earn their salvation.

    The Bible is quite clear that works are not required to have the Holy Spirit, but our Pentacostal friends are quite addament about you just can't believe and recieve the Holy Spirit.

    [ May 16, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  2. GrannyGumbo

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    Chemnitz, you are absolutely right! When I first started 'researching' this onesness-doctrine 3yrs.ago, I kept stumbling on the same kind of similarities with the catholic church. I'm no scholar or even book-smart (& I'd much rather be doing 'granny' things), & I don't know anything about anything, but I know when something is equal in more than one area, there's GOT to be a reason! Our son was told that we, as Baptists, came out of the Catholic church...Not True. We are NOT Protestants. He is beginning to see what I mean about their 'similarities', now that the newness-of-the-oneness is beginning to wane.
     
  3. Norman

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    "Which in its simplest form means you do your best to do good works then you recieve Baptism and the Holy Spirit and then you do good works in grace to earn justification. "

    That is totally wrong. You do not have to do anything except believe to receive the Holy Ghost and I don't know of any Pentecostals that think you have to do good works to get the Holy Spirit. My mother told about when she first started going to a Pentecostal church, she thought she should get the Holy Ghost right away bacause she had been a good person, but she found out it did not work that way. You are making a false accusation. You do not do good works to earn justification; but Jesus did say a good tree does not bear evil fruit (did he not say that?). You do good works because you have been delivered from sin; or do you not believe I John 1:9? "If we confess our sins (to God, not to the priest) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Should we ignore Titus 2:12?
     
  4. Chemnitz

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    Explain that to Oneness and to every preacher, because they are teaching works righteousness.
     
  5. ONENESS

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    Explain that to Oneness and to every preacher, because they are teaching works righteousness.</font>[/QUOTE]Chemitz Dont get the UPCI mixed up with just Pentecostals. There are alot of diffrences
     
  6. GrannyGumbo

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    Oneness, would ya mind telling me what those differences might be? I know the UPCI denies the Christian view of God. I know there are at least three competing views of Jesus Christ within the UPCI. I know there are four requirements for salvation in the UPCI. I know the UPCI doctrine of the Godhead is actually a reoccurrence of the 'Sabellian' heresy. I know that the Jesus of the UPCI is certainly "another Jesus" and is therefore foreign to the true Jesus presented in scripture. I know there is no way the UPCI Jesus can be reconciled with John 17:5. I know that the UPCI teaches that tongues is necessary for salvation.(The filling of the Spirit is commanded for every believer, but gift of tongues is not(Eph.5:18). I know the UPCI's demand to keep their holiness standards to retain salvation is an attempt to put people "under the law", which Paul condemned (Gal.3:1-7)... "Well, I've gone on too long, so tell me the difference, please. This is exactly how the apostolics here believe.
     
  7. Lorelei

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    The UPC does teach:

    "The church believes in the beautiful life style of holiness"

    Here is the problem, they don't exactly say that good works lead to salvation but I can bet ya if you aren't living a holy life they will tell you that you are in danger of hell fire.

    It's like they say works can't gain you salvation (although repentance, water baptism and spirit baptism w/speaking in tongue is required..they just don't call that works) but they say that if you don't continue in good works you can lose your salvation. That means to me that good works = salvation for without good works you lose it.

    Make any sense?

    ~Lorelei

    [ May 17, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  8. Lorelei

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    Here is exactly what the UPC is teaching:



    I think it's funny how they say we must do this and we must do that and then at the end they say you can't do any of it, only the Spirit can.

    That is exactly why Holy Living is not required for salvation, it is a fruit that occurs after salvation through the Holy Spirit's guidance. It should never be added as part of a formula for gaining salvation, as the UPC has done.

    ~Lorelei
     
  9. GrannyGumbo

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    Just about every day I am confronted by one of these here...I really think satan has zeroed his sights on me,haha...and here's one of the things said, "The book of Acts does not have an Amen at the end of it-know why? Because it isn't finished yet!" So I say, "well, how do you explain the fact that Revelation does"!(no answer). Then they say about the 'be saved' in Jn3:16-"Before I can 'be in' (Liddieville), I have to 'get to' (Liddieville), so go back to the book of Acts to see how to get saved"--then they expound on Acts8:37 & tells me to read Acts8:26-36. Then, of course, comes Acts2:38 & finally, Acts 19:1-7. They say that baptism was first changed in the 3rd century under Roman rule. Also, that the pentecostal/apostolic church has never changed, that it has been the same since Day 1, doing everything by the Book. They say there is no worldliness in their church, but yet, when I see some of the slits in the denim skirts they wear (not the church out here), well...also, there are no divorces--hogwash! The bishop out here will DEMAND them to divorce if they are already in a 2nd marriage. Many homes are literally being destroyed; especially since it is USUALLY the woman who gets wrapped-up in it first.
     
  10. MEE

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    Granny, since the Pentecostals are so wrong, what did Peter tell the Baptists and others to do, pertaining to salvation, on the Day of Pentecost, when the NT Church was born? If Acts 2:38 is incorrect, what do you say that we, as Pentecostal, should do to be saved. That sounds like a fair question..don't you think?

    Please keep this Biblical! Also don't go back under the Law to find NT salvation. I'm really interested in what you have to say. [​IMG]

    MEE
     
  11. Lorelei

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    Mee,

    Why do those who so strongly believe in a baptism of the Holy Ghost so quickly interpret the word baptism to mean water and not spiritual?

    Repent and you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost. The name of Jesus Christ is where the remission of sins comes from, not water.

    In the words of Paul and Silas to the frightened jailor who ran in fear asking them, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"



    That says it all for me, why do you think they lied to the jailor?

    ~Lorelei
     
  12. MEE

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    They didn't lie to the jailor. You do have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. First they had to believe 'in' the Lord before they could repent, be baptized, and recieve the Spirit.
     
  13. Lorelei

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    But they didn't say believe in and then do this and this and this. They said beleive and you will be saved. No ifs and or butts about it.

    ~Lorelei
     
  14. ONENESS

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    That says it all for me, why do you think they lied to the jailor?

    ~Lorelei
    </font>[/QUOTE]We dont, but we know what the diffrence is. We know that water is important part of it. Jesus said you have to be born of the water and the spirit.

    Acts 8.
    But when they believed phillip concerning the kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women, THen Simon himself believed also and when he was baptized he continued with Phillip and wondered beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    Acts 2
    and they that gladly received his word were baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls

    For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    We know this was not the Holy Ghost baptisim b/c the bible says he was fallen upon none of them.

    Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way. they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See here is water what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Phillip said if thou believest with all thine heart thou mayest and he answered and said, I believe that jesus christ is the Son of God, And he commanded the chariot to stand still and they went down both into the water, both Phillip and the Eunuch, and he baptized him, and they were come out of the water

    Acts 10. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    Would you like me to keep going?
     
  15. ONENESS

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    You will be saved if you believe. But once you believe you will do what Christ commanded. Believing is not a mental trip. You will put what you believe into action.
     
  16. susanpet

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    Oneness and MEE, if you Have to do anything for salvation it is of works. We are saved thru grace by faith in Jesus Christ. FAITH. After you are saved is when the good works come in. And you don't do works to get closer to God. If you are actually saved, born again, you will naturally want to do good works. You can't help yourself because you have Christ living in you and it will show. And I just don't understand why people who have asked the Lord to forgive them and have accepted Jesus still seek the Holy Ghost. You get the HG the moment you are saved.
    Let me ask you this, if a person is seeking the HG and dies or never "gets it", will they go to hell?
    This is ridiculus. If a person has the faith that they ared saved, they will go to heaven. They don't have to wait for days, weeks, or years to know for sure.
    Faith pleases God.
    Susan
     
  17. Chemnitz

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    The problem isn't living a Christian lifestyle, its in the fact that you all make it a requirement. On top of that is the fact that you all add so many laws and rules on to what Christ said. Because of these laws you are choosing your goodworks rather than taking what ever burdens come your way that are not of your choosing, which is classic Theology of Glory. So instead of basing your trust in the Cross you have placed your trust in your "signs" and "works"
     
  18. Lorelei

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    Yes, to be saved you must be born of the water (the physical birth that Nicodemus mentioned in John 3:4) and born of the Spirit. You don't have to be baptized by both in order to receive salvation. You will follow in water baptism as a symbol of the spiritual baptism, but if you die before you get to the water you need not worry, your sins are washed away by the Blood of Jesus, the water does nothing but show that picture.



    Notice they believed before they were baptized. The baptism was following the Lord's command, but not necessary for salvation.



    Again, they gladly received the word first. I also would like to know why you think it means water baptism when Peter was speaking of the spiritual baptism for the entire chapter. I also ask, where does it say any of the 3,000 spoke in tongues?



    So baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus only isn't sufficient for salvation?



    Yeah so they weren't saved because they didnt' have the Holy Spirit. We have been over this chapter several times. You still have never answered the question as to why Philip couldn't baptize them with the Holy Spirit, why did Peter have to be called?



    Exactly, he had to believe before he could be baptized for belief is what saves. Without believing first, there is no symbolizism to demonstrate with the water.



    And of course this is my favorite. How did they get the Holy Spirit if they had not been baptized with water yet???

    Nah, we have had this conversation before, you still won't keep the verses in context and understand the difference between the Holy Spirit baptism of the Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles. Would you like me to relink those thread again???

    ~Lorelei
     
  19. Lorelei

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    Glad to see you finally agree! Once you believe you are saved! Nothing else saves you! You follow in baptism because the Lord commanded you to and you want to obey him, but it isn't necessary for salavation.

    You are right believing isn't a mental trip and niether is the Holy Spirit baptism. You obey Christ out of love, you live a life dedicated to Christ because you have been saved, not because if you don't you won't go to heaven.

    As the UPC stated, you can't do any of this on your own, you can only do it through the Holy Spirit's power. Therefore, once you believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you making obedience to Christ possible.

    Romans 10:9 says "9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.". The first thing we must realize is that since we can not call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit (1 Corin. 12:3), then we must have the Spirit upon believing. There is no salvation apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for we are justified by the Spirit (1 Corin. 6:11). Once we believe and receive our salvation, that gift from the Lord is sealed with the Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14) until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30).

    The Holy Spirit is already there the moment you believe!

    ~Lorelei
     
  20. ONENESS

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    Yes, to be saved you must be born of the water (the physical birth that Nicodemus mentioned in John 3:4) and born of the Spirit. You don't have to be baptized by both in order to receive salvation. You will follow in water baptism as a symbol of the spiritual baptism, but if you die before you get to the water you need not worry, your sins are washed away by the Blood of Jesus, the water does nothing but show that picture.



    Notice they believed before they were baptized. The baptism was following the Lord's command, but not necessary for salvation.



    Again, they gladly received the word first. I also would like to know why you think it means water baptism when Peter was speaking of the spiritual baptism for the entire chapter. I also ask, where does it say any of the 3,000 spoke in tongues?



    So baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus only isn't sufficient for salvation?



    Yeah so they weren't saved because they didnt' have the Holy Spirit. We have been over this chapter several times. You still have never answered the question as to why Philip couldn't baptize them with the Holy Spirit, why did Peter have to be called?



    Exactly, he had to believe before he could be baptized for belief is what saves. Without believing first, there is no symbolizism to demonstrate with the water.



    And of course this is my favorite. How did they get the Holy Spirit if they had not been baptized with water yet???

    Nah, we have had this conversation before, you still won't keep the verses in context and understand the difference between the Holy Spirit baptism of the Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles. Would you like me to relink those thread again???

    ~Lorelei
    </font>[/QUOTE]you are missing the whole picture.

    WHere do you get that we think that baptisim is the only thing we teach

    Why do you think we dont believe you have to "believe" before you can go any farther.

    Jesus said unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins.

    YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE. OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE FIRST, WITH OUT BELIEVING IN JESUS THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO BE BAPTIZED?

    Ok you believe, you say you have the Holy Ghost So be it. Man I am so tired of going around in circles with you guys.

    Your not going to change my mind, b/c there are examples all throughout the book of Acts were people were repenting being baptized in the Name of Jesus and receiveing the Holy Ghost.

    Who cares anymore, my goodness, acording to what you say I am covered, I believe that Jesus is and blah blah blah, I think I am just going to go back to the way I use to be, drink a 12 pack smoke a joint, get in a fight tell the person that Jesus Loves them and continue believing in God.

    Keep having Faith, Keep believing never live holy and I promise you will never make it. How do I know?

    Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

    Oh i know "WORKS, WORKS, WOKRKS"

    Susan keep on beleiving in GOd and never do anything to get closer to him. YOu have to pray to get to heaven. Its a work,

    YOu have to repent to get to heaven, its a work

    you have to walk down to the alter or you have to make an alter for your self, that is a work.

    You have to read your bible to make it to heaven. That is a work.

    We are saved by grace. It is grace that God loved us enough to come die for our sins, it is grace that led him to the cross.

    It is faith that excepts that and obidence that makes us act. upon what we have faith in.

    If a person is seeking for the HOly Ghost, God will not take them out of this world until he is finished with them. He promised it to us, and if you are seeking for the Holy Ghost and you dont hold god faithful to his promise then you Make him a liar. He said it was a promise AND GOD DONT LIE.

    Yea there are certain things that we are told not to go, things we are told not to do, so on and so forth. Dont pity me, dont feel sorry for me, by all means. I feel sorry for you and I pity you b/c you dont have a man of God in yourlives who will pray and fast for your souls and you dont have someone that loves you enough to tell you that you dont need to do this and you dont need to do that.

    I bet all the churches in the bible damned the Apostles and put them in hell when they told them

    1 Corinthians 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    WORKS WORKS WORKS

    Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit
    the kingdom of God.

    WORKS WORKS WORKS

    Eph 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

    WORKS, WORKS, WORKS

    Gal:5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    WORKS WORKS WORKS

    Hebres 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
    2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
    3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
    4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
    5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
    6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
    7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
    8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
    10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
    11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
    12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
    13 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
    14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
    15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
    16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
    17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
    18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

    LOOK ALL JAMES WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IS WORKS WORKS WORKS, UHHHH WHO IS HE?

    Should I post the entire bible. Maybe you guys should just burn your bibles b/c you belive.

    God bless all :D

    [ May 17, 2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     

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