Soteriology, False Accusations, Straw Man Tactics & Denial

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by preacher4truth, Oct 2, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Recently in a thread concerning a woman who was saved out of a lifestyle of sin I commented upon her salvation experience.

    Here is her quote:

    My comment immediately upon this said:

    Of course my quote was met with false assumoptions and accusations masked as 'questions':

    First response:

    My response:

    This was met yet again with false accusations disguised as 'questions' which were actually used as conclusions, putting words in my mouth, and were, in fact straw man arguments:

    As it can be readily seen above in the post, there were conclusions made not upon what I stated, but upon what a person says I said. I not one time suggested any of the above conclusions.

    I responded with this:

    My point is: If you are going to rebut someone, don't assume upon their words. Don't play the game of denial, and don't deny what in all actuality you are saying another person said.

    To be frank, doing so is not Christian behavior, and these tactics are simply used to 'win' a pseudo debate made up in the mind of the one using false conclusions and only debating their own accusations which are apparently false.

    Don't use false conclusions as fact, which is what was done in responding to my statements. What's the point in doing so? False deception? Failure to face actual facts?

    Thirdly there was denial that said was done. Consider the following dialogue in repsonse to what I stated above:

    It is apparent that these weren't simply 'questions' being 'asked', since there were instead conclusions being made after the false assumptions, and then these assumptions were used as if factual, and then were attacked.

    Nevertheless the response to the above was this at post 13:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=89067&page=2

    I appreciate good honest debate, but to argue things that another person never stated IMO is not good. It doesn't reflect facts.

    To be honest, I've seen these tactics, denials, and more among too many Baptists, and it is downright wrong and shameful IMO.

    Can we argue the facts without the denial and straw man tactics and putting words into another's mouth?

    I appreciated the woman's testimony, and saw it as Biblically solid. There is no reason to accuse a person as being Catholic for complimenting a persons salvational experience -- it is was unnecessary.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why does this happen, and why do some go into accusatory mode and plant assumptions as fact upon another, when the evidence is so clear that the one being accused in no way supports these things? Why are questions which are actually accusatory spun to be 'only' questions when it is a apparent they are not simply questions when they are used as conclusions?

    These things should not be.

    Concluding thoughts:

    I read the OP tied to this OP and was enthused by the woman's understanding of salvation. There was absolutely no intent on my part to make it a Cal/Arm debate, as I said I was simply enthused and I genuiney hope others get it as she did.

    But, being enthused that a person grasps Solus Christus brings on an attack because her affiliation didn't have the right 'brand mark', and since that was the case, it was assumed that I then endorse Catholicism.

    Why do we treat others this way?
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,378
    Likes Received:
    790
    What you did was a back handed attack on other members of the board suggesting she knows something better than other members of the board. It was childish and I question your true intent. I believe you did intend to turn it into a calvinism thing. Your kind of attack calvinism is over the top, ungodly, and childish.
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    Oh how unkind P4T was to ever suggest such a thing! He is such a fiend for upsetting your fragile sensibilities! How could it ever be a possibility that learned theologians like yourself could be upstaged by a mere woman.

    Oh, we sense that you are indeed seething with righteous anger. Oh, shutter,shutter.
     
  4. Herald

    Herald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a sensitivity for those who come to faith in Christ while still a part of the Roman system.

    I was saved in April of 1979. At the time I was a Roman Catholic. If anyone here remembers the "Jesus Movement" of the 1970's, I was caught up in that. Although I made a profession of faith in an Assembly of God church in Harrison, NJ, I went with my mother to St. Antoninus Church in Newark, NJ. At that time it was part of the Catholic Renewal Movement. It was filled with Roman Catholics who had just made professions of faith in Christ. Bible studies were being held and Jesus was being praised. A few months later this movement spread to Our Lady of Sorrows Church in Kearny, NJ. Bible studies were held in the basement where the Gospel was truly preached. The archdiocese of Newark had no idea that a mini-Protestant Reformation was taking place in its churches. Eventually the movement became too big to fly under the radar and the bishop squashed it. The result was multiple dozens of people who had professed faith in Christ having to make a choice. Some stayed in the Catholic Church for at least a while. Eventually the lack of Gospel preaching drove them out in order to find a Bible believing church. Many of them (like my mother and me) found a Bible believing church immediately.

    There was no doubt that my conversion was real. By God's grace, and the work of the Holy Spirit, I was led out of the papist system. I do not know how any child of God could continue to be a part of that system for an extended period of time. But make no mistake, God calls His elect from even the most darkest of places.
     
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's interesting and sad that even suggesting that a person has a better grasp on truth than another it is considered as an 'attack'. What a fragile ego. :laugh:

    I seriously wonder if the anti-cal actually read the entire article as it was quite clear that her salvational testimony was undergirded with truth aka reformed/calvinist doctrine, albeit probably unbeknownst to her.

    But now? Well, the testimony formerly used as something positive is now at this time being looked at as a possible negative since the truth of her conversion is now brought to the forefront, and even suggesting she has a better understanding is considered not only an attack, but a 'back-handed' attack. :laugh:

    Let's apply that nonsense to Scripture for example. Anytime a person is rebuked or shown to be lacking in knowledge, (which happens frequently in the NT) we should take that as a back-handed attack. Or put it this way, if a person does take it that way, it is a commentary on their own ego and pride.


    That's it right there, and that is what I was saying in the other thread all along, and it is what is reflected in the OP here. It's quite Pharisaical of persons to attack another due to their being enthused about someone else's salvation, not to mention putting words in their mouth, drumming up false accusations and the other nonsense.
     
  6. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, never thought I'd be the object of such a long post.

    Enjoy!
     
  7. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually you're not the object, the woman who was saved is the object. :wavey:

    The second part of the post is about how others go on the attack concerning a persons salvation and accuse others of being anything negative that comes to mind for being enthused about that persons salvation, using all sorts of vitriol, false accusations and more.

    The underlying question of the post is to show how in Baptist realms this behavior takes place which is quite shameful to say the least. :thumbs:
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,957
    Likes Received:
    96
    Is or was your mother Italian?
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,957
    Likes Received:
    96
    Congratulations....you ran him off the board!
     
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    He owns his decision to run off. :wavey:
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    You big bully!
     
  12. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is not the same thing as the woman's testimony. She was saved from atheism , and is NOW a roman catholic. Tom's reply was in regards to the insinuation her testimony somehow proves determinism, as God would determine she left one false view to go to another. The author of the op has a hard time discerning such simple exchanges.

    When you fight so hard against personal accountability and responsibility you are left with such facepalm moments.
     
    #12 webdog, Oct 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2013
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you believe God called her out of her abominable lifestyle into the roman catholic church? I would like to know which deterministic respected theologians of yours hold to such nonsense.
     
    #13 webdog, Oct 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2013
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Look at the nonsense and attack on her testimony.

    She's being told she's not saved.

    She's being attacked.

    She's being told she was only saved from atheism.

    What is being inferred is that she must become a Baptist (or most anything but Catholic) to 'get to heaven' or for her testimony to be valid.

    What nonsense.

    It is apparent that she was saved from her sins.
     
  15. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Look at the nonsense and attack on God's character.

    He's being told He brings people into the great whore He commands us to come out of.

    He's being attacked.

    He's being told roman catholicism somehow is better than atheism.

    What is being inferred is that he can place this nebulos group called 'the elect' into any false religion and cult and somehow remain holy and righteous. Personal testimony's are irrelevant...'its all God', He receives full credit for placing people in false religions, and must be praised and worshipped in doing so.

    What nonsense.

    It is apparent that she was saved from her sins by somehow being determined she would adhere to goddess worship and a works based theology.
     
  16. Herald

    Herald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    I could not find the link to the woman's testimony in the OP (maybe I missed it?). I just wanted to share God's glorious work of mercy and grace in my life; both in saving me and calling me out of Romanism.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's awesome...He did the same with my wife, too.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,957
    Likes Received:
    96
    Its much easier to walk away from RCC if your whole culture, your whole history, your whole neighborhood & family isn't ingratiated in the whole bloody mess. To break away from it in those situations takes allot of courage. You will be ostracized.
     
  19. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Herald,

    Here's the link.
     
  20. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, in a sense, he did. He wrote me

    And p4t is correct. That is what I was becoming. And hated it. So instead of cutting off my hand or poking out my eye, I decided to leave.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...