Sotierological Unity?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Nov 1, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    Guys,

    I was reading my doctrine book last night again, this time regarding "regeneration." See if you Calvies like this better.

    The author was saying that regeneration was wholy of God. I agree -- His gift.

    He also said our natural wills are impotent regarding choosing salvation (which I rather understand now). He said that our will needed some Holy Spirit assistance before we could be regenerated. Put that way, I understand what Calvinists have been telling me all along about choice (we ALONE can't choose Christ). I myself never denied this in my own testimony and understood it was by HS help that I could "hear" the word.

    In the next section, he didn't press "belief" (like I do) but said that to be regenerated we must a) "accept" the word of God we hear or read or the gospel (the word always being accompanied by the Holy Spirit speaking to us) and 2) "receive" Jesus Christ for Who He is IN ORDER THEN TO BE REGENERATED.

    That may still not be an acceptable ordering to Calvinists -- or it may -- but I thought it came closer AND was quite in line with my own understanding of hear, believe, repent.

    Does that wording unify us in any way in the "faith and knowledge of Christ Jesus?" Hey, I'm not always "tearing down." My preferred methodology would be to be "building up."

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Nov 1, 2007
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  2. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    This "Holy Spirit assistance" that our wills need is what we refer to as "regeneration". Our will needs to be regenerated so that we can see the need to repent and believe.
    Once the Holy Spirit has regenerated our will, then we are able to "'accept' the word of God we hear or read or the gospel (the word always being accompanied by the Holy Spirit speaking to us)" as you say above.
    If we are truly regenerate then our acceptance of the word of God is also accomplished by a further work of the Holy Spirit, which we usually speak of as "faith".

    I think your #2 step, "receive" is really part of #1, "accept" which shows that we already have been regenerated so that we could truly repent and believe.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    Seeing as how you actually have a civil post about what those in the Doctrine of Grace believe, I will risk it and add a few points of my own.

    1. Regeneration is WHOLLY OF and BY the Spirit. It is an act of the Spirit on the child of God which He does in His own time, in His own way, apart from any human means. The gospel is not an agent of regeneration. It confirms regeneration, after the fact, when the child of God responds to its preaching, call, and instruction.

    2. However, once a regenerate child of God comes within hearing of the gospel, his quickened spirit knows and recognizes the Name of the Son of God (My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they know me), and he obeys and follows the Son's voice. There is no way I can believe that a quickened child of God can remain defiant of the gospel and its instructions once God puts him under its hearing. This is not to say that ALL the elect will hear the gospel in their lifetimes, some won't.
     
  4. webdog

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    ...but...if regeneration is what is referred to as "born again"...the regenerated one will have been passed from death to life. Repentance and belief is a mere formality in this eqation, and totally unnecessary, as if you ARE passed from death to life by being regenerated, it's a done deal PRIOR to faith.

    Regeneration parallel with faith (the exact moment, not one second prior) is what is scriptural.
     
  5. skypair

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    :laugh: :laugh: This is not going real well, is it, WD? :laugh:

    You're absolutely right, web!

    And there is no point of unity here at all since they are saved before they even hear the gospel.

    Oh me. :praying:

    skypair
     
  6. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Regeneration is the term used to describe the work of the Holy Spirit prior to the actual moment of salvation. For some, perhaps the two follow almost simulatneously, for others, the moment of belief may come at a later point. And people's testimonies often show this difference clearly. Some may have believed the moment that the Holy Spirit gave them the desire. For others, they may have struggled with the concept of God's forgiveness as they may have seen themselves unforgivable due to strong convictions of their sin.
    For some who have grown up in Christian homes, the moment of salvation is not very pin-pointable. They cannot remember a time when they did not desire to be obedient to Jesus. I hope my children will be saved or are saved in a manner like this.
    It's not a mere formality. Repentance and belief are commanded. It is only until one is regenerated that they can actually fulfill the command. The desire must be there. The Holy Spirit regenerates the nature and gives it new God-honoring desires, which lead to desiring to obey the command of repent and believe.
    We all agree that outside the working of the Holy Spirit, none of us would have ever been saved. We just disagree as to what or how the Spirit does this work.

    Our position is often portrayed as the Spirit coercing, dragging, forcing, or automating ourselves to believe. We describe it as a wooing, the Holy Spirit causing us to see Christ and desire Him for who He is and this change in vision leads to us repenting and believing.

    Without regeneration, none of us would repent and believe.
    Our sinful natures would not permit us. Our sinful natures know nothing about desiring Christ and His salvation. It only knows and serves sin. Something must be done to it to make Christ appear desirable. How else can we desire repentance and belief? The Holy Spirit must do something for us. That something is what we call regeneration.

    BTW, webdog, I think the blind man in John 9 is an excellent example of how regeneration and salvation look in the lives of some believers. He obeyed Christ initially due to a regenerated mind and will, but it wasn't until later in the story, that we see a full acknowledgement of who Christ is. He could obey the go-and-wash command because the Holy Spirit had regenerated his will to desire to obey Christ's commands. IOW, the man's will had been prepared to obey by the Holy Spirit. However, the moment of salvation seems to have happened when Jesus revealed who He was and the man believed and worshipped Him.
     
    #6 Isaiah40:28, Nov 1, 2007
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  7. skypair

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    That certainly seems to be the Calvinist error alright --- to make regeneration equal to election. To say that the "elect" have been given the indwelling Spirit sometime prior to hearing the gospel. Some say it is upon their baptism as infants --- some say since conception.

    The problem is that regeneration equates to what the Bible calls being "born again" and "saved." Why isn't that the better description, Isaiah? Why doesn't "rebirth" = "regeneration" in your mind?

    skypair
     
  8. Isaiah40:28

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    Who equated that?

    Again, who said any of that?
    No one said anything about the "indwelling Spirit".

    You haven't accounted for why a person's will or nature desires salvation.
    Regeneration explains how salvation becomes desirable and possible.

    Your view has the sinful soul not "saved", then "some Holy Spirit assistance" comes along and does "something that the will needs" and then a person can now choose to accept or reject Christ.

    What is that "Holy Spirit assistance"? What is that "something that the will needs" prior to what you call "regeneration" or "born again" or "saved"?
    It's a work of the Holy Spirit, so what is He doing to us before salvation?
     
  9. npetreley

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    Skypair equates them. He also equates election to timely salvation, black to white, and Elvis to Bach. There's no point in correcting him. We've corrected him countless times and he still repeats these errors ad nauseum.
     
  10. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Yes, I'm aware, but there are others who perhaps will benefit from our exchange, even if it is not Skypair.
     
  11. webdog

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    I understand what the term is used for by calvinists...but fact remains regeneration means to be "born again" in the Bible. If one is "born again", one passes from life to death, hence the meaning of "born again".

    What you describe as being the agent responsible for faith is God's drawing, not regeneration.
     
  12. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Do you have a specific verse in mind when you assert this?
    Yes, but the regenerated person may not have actually done that yet. When did the blind man according to John 9, become "born again"?
    Would you say it was when he obeyed the go-and-wash command or when he referred to Jesus as a prophet or when it said that he believed and worshipped?
    I'm not sure what you meant here.
     
  13. skypair

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    "Regeneration," in Christian parlance, IS Holy Spirit indwelling. We are born again because we are born of the spiritually -- by being "dead in Christ" and "revived" by the Spirit.

    Your use of the term "regeneration" says it.

    I accounted for it by the Holy Spirit accompanying the word of God and the gospel which we MUST accept and receive.

    Yes, and this is classic Calvinism! Only difference is Calvinism says that the "assistance" is indwelling and free will says the "assistance" is the word of God and the gospel.

    CONVICTION, John 16:8.

    1) Conviction of sin. 2) Conviction of God (righteousness). 3) Conviction of judgment (that the WORLD is judged either individually or in Christ). This is knowledge that only the Spirit can bring but it is NOT because the Spirit already indwells/regenerates a person.

    Let me put it this way -- it is an intellectual thing. Our mind IS our spirit and God's mind is His Spirit. They are communicating unless the hearer "draws back."

    Drawing, just like you say. As I've told TC --- Christ is "proposing marriage." God does not do "arranged marriages" wherein you are the unwilling bride. Yet that is what Calvinism proposes.

    skypair
     
  14. skypair

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    Not till after Christ died! No one was born again/indwelt until then.

    skypair
     
  15. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    have a great day
     
  16. npetreley

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    Maybe it would help to define some terms.

    Regeneration: That change by which holy affectations and purposes are substituted for the opposite motives in the heart

    Fatalism: A submissive mental attitude resulting from acceptance of the doctrine that everything that happens is predetermined and inevitable

    Futilism: The attempt to have an intelligent conversation with skypair
     
  17. webdog

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    John 3:7 the words "born again" express regeneration.
    Eph. 2:5, the words "made alive" refer to regeneration, the new life
    2 Cor. 5:17, the words "new creation" speak of the new birth
    1 John 3:1,2, the expression "children of God" refers to regeneration.
    Titus 3:5, the word "regeneration" itself is used.
    After he got up, went to the pool, and washed. That's when he was made "whole" so to speak. If it was prior, he would have had his sight restored prior to getting up and washing.
    What you refer to as regeneration prior to faith, I believe is God's drawing prior to.
     
  18. npetreley

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    Does this help?

     
  19. webdog

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    So...according to that regeneration is being saved, no?
     
  20. npetreley

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    No, it's part of how. See that word "by"?
     

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