Soul and Spirit

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have heard so many different explanations for what others say the soul and the spirit are. It really is so simple. Our mind, our feelings, our conscious, that is our spirit. If anyone gets a modern English version Bible, such as the NIV, you can easily see that whenever the bible talks about our soul, it is at that time concerned with our living body (our physical living body with its spirit). Whenever the bible talks about our spirit, it is concentrating on our spirit, our spirit whether in our body or out of our body. Whenever the bible talks about our body, it is speaking of a living physical body or a dead physical body. A soul is a physical body alive with a spirit. The body is dead without the spirit (James 2:26), and the spirit lives on after death of the body.
    Refer to 1 Thessalonians. We can see that God will sanctify us through and through, our whole spirit (spirit without a body), soul (spirit and body together), and our body (with or without our spirit/dead or alive). God truly sanctifies us through and through.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I just wanted to share all that with others, and I hope we have agreement.
     
  2. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    In doing some research on the spiritual gift of discerning spirits I was using the Complete Word Study Dictionary. It has an extensive write up on the word Spirit (Strong's # G4151). In that definition it says the soul is the intangible part of man that allows him to interact with the world (think, process information, etc). It also describes the spirit as the intangible part of man that allows him to interact with God.

    I like this as it maintains a proper delineation of three parts that make a person (soul, spirit, and body). The English language does use the word soul to talk about physical people, but that does not rightly address the meanings of the original Greek words used in the writing of the NT. Also, maintaining the distinction of the three helps us stress the fullness of the importance of being holy. What we do with our body matters. What we think (soul) matters. What or who we worship matters, as does how we worship (spirit).
     
  3. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0


    Thank you for your reply. Since you have read my post, you know that I do not believe there are three, as you and Strong say. There is only three after we receive the Spirit of God. The Bible says the soul is dead without the spirit. Since the soul is dead without the spirit, then how do you get more than two?
     
  4. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    I understand what you believe.


    If you look into verses like 1 Thes 5:23 (which you posted in the OP) and dig into the original language and definitions you will find the distinctions. Admittedly most people do not go that far in their study and are happy to hang their hats on the English words. It is this same reason why we so often have a narrow catchall definition for sin when the Bible talks about sin, iniquity, and transgressions.

    I encourage you to dig in. I am sure it will bless you.
     
  5. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    God has already blessed me with the truth about the soul and the spirit. I have considered the scriptures carefully, and with great measure.

    The soul is a body with a spirit. When the Bible speaks of the body, it could be about a body alive with it's spirit, or it could be about a dead body, a body without it's spirit. When the Bible speaks of a person's spirit, it could be speaking of the person's spirit with, or without the physical body.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    In the bible the term "dead" does not mean non-existent. When the body dies it is separated from the immaterial aspect of human nature. Both the body exists and the immaterial nature of man continues to exist. Likewise, Spiritual death simply means that the human spirit is "SEPARATED" from God just as the reverse (spiritual life) means the human spirit is in spiritual UNION with God. Hence, death never means non-existence. Eternal "death" is eternal SEPARATION of the whole man in gehenna forever from God not cessation of being.

    Isaiah says that our sins have SEPERATED us from our God - Isa. 59:1-2 - and we are "dead" in tresspasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) or SEPARATED from God by our sins rather than cessation of existence.

    Hebrews 4:12 says that nothing is hidden from God and that the Word of God is able to distinguish between "spirit and soul" just as it is able to distinguish between "intent and thoughts" of the heart and "joints and morrow." Hence, the Word does distinguish between the "spirit and soul."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 is a prayer for the MORAL ("blameless") sanctification of the "spirit" and "soul" and "body" and therefore there is a moral application to both spirit and soul.

    The "spirit" of the lost man is existing before new birth as it is the "spirit" of man that is born again - "that which is born of Spirit is spirit" - John 3:6

    The new birth is not bringing the human "spirit" into existence but is rather the "washing and renewing" of the human spirit from the defilement of sin. It is "renewing" it in the "image of God" and restoring it to spiritual UNION with God as it is that aspect of man where the Holy Spirit dwells within man.

    The temple has an outer court (body) and holy place (soul) and holy of holies (spirit) and God dwells in the innermost part of the temple (spirit). Regeneration simply cleanses the inner sanctuary of man from demonic influences, and provides a sanctified sanctuary within man for The HOly Spirit to dwell.

    God has provided us with three distinct seats of consciousness:

    1. Our body is the seat of outer world consciousness through five senses
    2. Our Soul is the seat of self-consciousness - mind, will, emotions
    3. Our Spirit is the seat of spirit world consciousness -

    Just as God is "spirit" and they who worship Him must worship Him in "spirit" so also Satan is a spirit and they who worship him also worship him in "spirit" as the human spirit is the medium for fellowshipping with the spirit world both good and evil. The spirit is where the faculties of conscience, intuition and communion exist.
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Feb 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2012
  7. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for your reply, Biblicist. I want to take what you said slowly, that way I can see exactly where we start to differ, if we do.

    I think that we have the same belief so far.
    We still have the same belief.
    Yea, sounds like my same beliefs.
    Okay, I think you are still with me on this.

    Would you consider the physical body that returned to dust non-existence?


    I think we are still in the same beliefs at this point.
    Yes.
    I have explained this, that the soul is a body with a spirit (a living body). The spirit is the emotions, thoughts, even speech, etc., of the person, everything the person is, but without the body.
    In 1 Thessalonians, we are to be kept blameless whether in our soul (alive in our bodies), or just ourselves without our bodies (our spirit), and even our bodies when dead.
    I think that this is about ourselves (our spirits), coming alive and born again by the Holy Spirit, as we learn to live and be like Christ. When we go from earthly, worldly, and fleshly living, to becoming Christ-like.
    I think that we still might be saying the same thing and having the same beliefs, but I am getting the idea from you that I am losing you to there being another separate, silent type of being in us that you are calling our spirit? If that is what you are trying to say, then this is where we definitely stop believing the same.

    The temple is the body, but what do you mean "holy place (soul)? How are you now making the soul separate from the body, if the body is still alive? Since our bodies are only temples of God when they are alive. In addition, as for the innermost part of the temple, how do you now call it the spirit? At this point, I would say it is not possible to come to any kind of agreement. Unless you can possibly explain this better to me, and if I find that I misunderstood you.
    The inner person is the spirit of the person. Do you agree?
    I think there are three, but not three in the way you are describing. Again, we can have 1. A body dead (that is, a body without the spirit). 2. A body with a spirit (thus called a soul). And, 3. A spirit with or without a physical body.
    I am not so sure if I agree with you here. Is the spirit giving all these senses to the body, and in your beliefs, can the spirit have these senses independently apart from the body?
    Right here I think I am losing you again. You are not really separating the soul from the spirit. You seem to be giving the body part of the soul some functions that belong to the spirit.
    I do not see how you are pin pointing anything real about the spirit in this explanation.
    I think the spirit is the person, with or without a body. One either uses the body for good or for evil. The spirit, the person, either is transformed to only use his spirit and soul (mind and body for good), thus through God and for God, or for bad, by the devil and for devil.
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,238
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB) "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord."

    Spirit = the spirit of man is his eternal nature made in the image and likeness of God. Fallen due to sin but renewed by the finished work of Christ.

    Soul = The mind, intellect, emotions, and will of man. A function of the flesh but existing apart from it.

    Body = The body of this flesh, in which dwells no good thing, to be redeemed and glorified at the return of Christ.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 does not say "the Spirit without the body and the soul with the body"! If that was what it mean it would be redundant to then add "the body" at the end.

    Second, Paul is talking about their present state of existence as "spirit, soul...and body" being preserved until the coming of the Lord which He expected during his own lifetime.



    The Old Testament Tabernacle/Temple is a type of the Triune God, and human nature.

    1. As a type of the Triune God:

    a. Outer court was visible to the world - The incarnate Son of God - altar of sacrifice
    b. Inner court was invisible to the world - The Holy Spirit - oil represents The Spirit, Altar of incense power of the Spirt - Rom. 8:26-27
    c. Holy of holiest - The Father on His throne.

    2. As a type of triune man:

    a. Outer court was visible to the world - the human body
    b. Inner court was invisible to the world - the soul
    c. Holy of holiest was invisible to the world- the spirit - where the Holy Spirit dwells.

    The Bible distinguishes the "body" from the "soul" in the following passages:

    1. 1 Thes. 5:23 - spirit and soul listed distinct from body

    2. Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Jesus says man is able to kill the body but he is not able to kill the soul. If they were one and the same this would make no sense

    3. Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    God has a "soul" but NO BODY!
     
  10. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    You really are not describing what the spirit is, in your definition here. In addition, what you call the soul and being the "function of the flesh but existing apart from it...that IS the spirit. Do you not see how I am calling that the spirit?
    The evidence that you are describing the spirit but calling it a soul is because you say it lives on when a person dies, but is not the spirit of the person the part that lives on? Is not the spirit of the person that lives on a conscious, thinking, talking, and emotional existence? I believe yes. The fact is, that when a person dies, his or her soul only changes by the death of the body. When the body dies, what else is there? There are not three separate parts to a human that lives on. There is not even two parts that live on after the body. So, the body is one part, and the spirit is the other part, and that makes two.
     
    #10 Moriah, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  11. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is not redundant, as you say it is. The body must be kept blameless, even when the body is dead and no longer a part of us!
    Paul is explaining the three conditions of a person, and all these conditions must always be kept blameless. Some will be already dead when Jesus comes, therefore, they must be blameless with their spirit, yet there body is dead, you must have lived with it blamelessly. If you are still physically alive when Jesus comes, then you must be blameless with your spirit, and your body, which still makes you a soul.

    Is not the spirit the invisible part also?

    You have only described two parts of a man. Of course the Holy Spirit lives inside man, but then you are claiming that an unsaved person has three parts still too?
    Here Jesus is speaking of AFTER the resurrection. AFTER the resurrection, we will not have a spirit that ever again separates from its body. When someone is thrown in the lake of fire, they are thrown in after they have been raised from the dead, they will have their body back.

    Read again what I just explained about after the resurrection. Remember, when a person dies, before the resurrection, and is still separated from God, their spirits go to a type of Hell, or Hades. Hell is being separated from God. When a person is resurrected from the dead, they will have their bodies back with their spirit united, and this a man cannot kill, but God can throw them in Hell.
    Paul was quoting God from the Old Testament. Did not God in the Old Testament speak of Himself as with a body also?

    In addition, I just want to point out that not all Bible translations say “soul” in Hebrews 10:38.
     
    #11 Moriah, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    The present body whether living or dead is described as "corrupted" in 1 Cor. 15:52-55 and does not receive incorruptibiity until glorification. In the grave it corrupts and turns back to dirt! How is that being kept "blameless"?????


    What is there in this context for you to base this interpretation upon? It is impossible that he is speaking of the "body" after death because it CORRUPTS back into dust - It is not kept "blameless" from sin and its consequences as the wages of sin is "death" and the body DIES - corrupts and turns back to dust!




    From where in this context do you justify that interpretation????





    Your interpretation has no contextual basis at all! The context is dealing with why the disicples of Christ should not fear what man can do to them NOW and HERE because of their witness for Christ. No man can kill the body AFTER the resurrection but Jesus is speaking of the time when men can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. According to your interpretation if they killed the body the would kill the soul and thus you make Christ a liar. He is speaking of the time when the body is subject to death by men. The body is not subject to death AFTER the resurrection. So you interpretation contradicts the very wording of the text.
     
  13. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why are you getting so indignant? I am only telling you what the Bible says.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    We keep the body blameless by not sinning with our body.
    Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.
    We keep our body blameless by not sinning with the body. The body is the temple of the living God! Why are you putting down the body so hard? Is this because of your belief that it is normal to lose to the flesh?
    1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.
    Be respectful and more fearful. Stop telling people when you do not understand their explanation that it makes Jesus a liar! I do not like reading that from you or anyone for any reason, nor should you feel comfortable writing that. It is a disrespectful debate tactic.
    As for Matthew 10:28, we are told that we should not fear what man can do to us now and here, that we should only fear God who can do more to you than what man can do, for man can kill the body, but God can throw the body, and the body and spirit (the soul) in hell. Remember, the soul IS the alive body with the spirit, the body is alive because of the spirit. Man cannot kill the spirit, but God can throw it in hell with its body.
    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
    #13 Moriah, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  14. Andre

    Andre
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,870
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see no Biblical evidence for this idea of soul that can exist apart from the body.
     
  15. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no such thing as a soul existing apart from the body since the soul is a physical body alive with its spirit. The spirit lives on in full consciousness after the death of the physical body. Many scriptures tell us this fact.

    Here is something for you to consider carefully, 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

    Here Paul does not know for sure if he was caught up to the third heaven in his body or out of his body. How could Paul possibly wonder if he was caught up out of his body if there is no such thing as our spirit living outside our body?
     
    #15 Moriah, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,238
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    So you believe, after the death of the body, that part of you that lives on will lack intelligence, will, and emotions?

    If so you have the first part taken care of already. :D
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    Are you claiming that you live above sin? Are you claiming that the body is never used in speaking and/or doing something sinful? Are you claiming that you are as sinless as God? It seems you are claiming that the body can be kept from all sin! Previously you claimed that the body could be kept "blameless" even after death. Don't you realize the body does not put on incorruptibility until the resurrection but presently is corrupted by sin and the proof is that it DIES and CORRUPTS. It is anything but kept "blameless" now or after death.


    1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Paul is asserting that your body is "corruptible" and remains "corruptible" or CORRUPTED by sin until the resurrection when it is glorified. It is not kept "blamelss" from sin or the power of sin now after death.



    Yes, it says that man here and now can kill the body but man here and now cannot kill the soul - read the text:


    Mt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    The same subject "them" for the assertion "which kill the body" is the same subject "them" which "are not able to kill the soul."

    You are saying that soul = body but Jesus is flatly denying that. Jesus is saying man can kill the body but man cannot kill the soul. If the "body" = "soul" then Jesus would have said "fear not them which kill the body and thus kill the soul" but HE DID NOT SAY THAT. he stated man can kill the body and yet could not kill the soul. The present tense is used for both statements so neither is IN THE FUTURE! What is in the future is what God can do. Even what God can do demonstrates the body is not the soul because Jesus says "BOTH" rather than saying the body is the soul!

    There is no possible way you can twists his language to make it mean that the soul is the body either now or in the future in regard to this statement.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  18. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why do you always resort to the same type of accusations when I quote the Bible about not sinning? Are you any different from when Jesus saved you from before Jesus saved you?
    1 Thessalonians 5:22 says, “Avoid every kind of evil.” Then the very next scripture is 1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    So why do you act as if I am speaking my words and not the Word of God? This is strange that you have blinded yourself from acknowledging the Word of God, and instead you treat me as if I have made comments from my own imagination. Avoid every kind of evil. Why does that offend you so much? That is the word of God.
    You say the body is anything but kept blameless. Do you not want to acknowledge that you are fighting God’s words?
    Try searching other English Bible translations besides King James Version when studying. This is from the NIV… When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

    Paul is not saying the body is corrupt, as immoral. You are misunderstanding the scriptures. Your teachers have convinced you so thoroughly that it is natural for you to keep sinning, that you do not consider the real meaning of this scripture.
    What do you think you are explaining to me? Why is it so hard for you to understand? Man cannot kill the body with the spirit, but man can kill the body. Man cannot kill the soul, the soul is the body with the spirit.
    How many times have you read that I said the soul is a body with a spirit? Why do you say I say the soul = body. The soul is a living body, made alive with the spirit.
    You are the one who needs to understand what you just said. Jesus DID NOT SAY fear not them which kill the body and thus kill the soul. Man cannot kill the soul! The soul is the body WITH A SPIRIT.

    Jesus said man could kill the body but not kill the soul. Do you think Jesus should have said a man could kill the body but not the spirit? The point we should be concentrating on is what God can do, and that is throw the body and soul in hell. The body is what man can kill, God can throw the body in hell. It is like saying a man can destroy a man's body...God can destroy a man's body...AND THE SOUL. After the resurrection, there will be no more separation of body and spirit, so can you see why the point is that of the soul? Remember, the soul is a body with its spirit. Jesus says God can throw the body in hell. Jesus says God can throw the soul in hell. If you remember that whenever the Bible speaks of the body, it can be with or with the spirit, (it can be dead or alive). Whenever the Bible talks about the soul, it is speaking of the body with its spirit, so why would not God say body and soul?
    Your reasoning is greatly flawed.
    Are you not contradicting yourself here? First, you say it is present tense, and then you say it is the future. In addition, tell me when you think God can put a body in hell? The body goes to the ground and turns to dust, but there will be no more body going to dust after the resurrection.
    The body is not the soul! The body is the body, with or with the spirit, but a soul is a body WITH THE SPIRIT.
    There is no way you can pretend I say something that I do not. I said the body is a body with or without the spirit, but a body with the spirit is a soul. There is no way you can ever explain that scripture with your reasoning. Go ahead and try to explain then what Matthew 10:28 means.
     
    #18 Moriah, Feb 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2012
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    The only thing man can kill is the body with the spirit in it because the body without the spirit is ALREADY DEAD because James say the body is dead without the spirit.

    James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead...."

    Therefore, in order for the body to be something man can kill, it must have the spirit abiding in it or else it is already dead!

    However, if as you say, the soul EQUALS a body with spirit, then man could kill the "soul" by killing the body with the spirit in it! If the body has no spirit in it, James says it is already dead. Man cannot kill what is already dead. Hence, what man kills is something alive and for it to be alive it must be a body with spirit.

    James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead...."

    Thus by your definition man can kill the soul as that is the only thing man can kill since the only living body is a body with spirit. However, by Christ's definition man cannot kill the soul, therefore, the body plus the spirit does not equal the "soul" by Christ's definition.

    You are reading into this text what Jesus does not say. He does not say man can kill the body whether it is with or without the spirit! He does not say that the body with the spirit is a soul! He does not say that! YOU are the one reading this into the text.

    Jesus says that the body with the spirit can be killed - as the body without the spirit is ALREADY DEAD and man cannot kill what is ALREADY DEAD. However, Jesus says man cannot kill the soul! Hence, the soul cannot include the body with or without a spirit or otherwise man could kill it. So your interpretation is wrong!

    When the body is killed by man both the spirit and soul depart from the body but man cannot kill either. God does not anihilate either in Gehenna.
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2012
  20. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the soul and spirit are different then what is the origin of each? How do they come into existence?
     

Share This Page

Loading...