Soulless?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by menageriekeeper, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
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    From another thread:

    For some reason this remark sparked both a memory and a question.

    The memory is of being taught that angels have no souls.

    The question is: Where did this view come from or was I taught incorrectly?
     
  2. Helen

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    The word 'nephesh' in Hebrew is defined as 'breath of life' 'soul' and 'heart' at various times in the Bible. Heart not being the physical heart, but the seat of emotions and will.

    Unless 'breath of life' is going to limit the definition to nostrils and lungs, there is no reason I am aware of to say that angels have no soul. They certainly have a will, for a third of them followed Satan. They seem to have emotions, for there is rejoicing in heaven when a sinner turns and repents.

    I'd be interested to see if you get other responses to this.
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    We first see 'soul' in Genesis 2:7 when God breathed in man's nostrils the breath of life 'and man became a living soul'.

    Hebrews 1:13, 14 speaks of angels as being 'ministerring spirits', not souls.
     
  4. Johnv

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    I concur with Helen. I don't see the scriptural concept of the soul being absent from angels. Physical body, yes; soul, no.
     
  5. PamelaK

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    If angels had souls, would they not be in need of salvation as humans? I seem to remember being taught this, but that was so many years ago....
     
  6. Johnv

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    That's all the realm of speculation, PamelaK. We simply weren't intended to know all there is to know about the realm of angels. So all we can do is speculate.
     
  7. Scarlett O.

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    This is just my personal opinion, so take it as just that.

    I do not believe that angels have souls in the same way that people do.

    They are spirits, but do not possess a soul in need of salvation.

    1 Peter chapter 1 says something about angels being "curious" and wanting to know more about man and his need for salvation and method of salvation.

    To me, if they need to be "saved", then there would be a period of time in which they were "lost". If they were "lost", they could not be in the presence of God in Heaven.

    Lucifer (the devil) was cast out of Heaven and took one-third of the angels with him who became known as demons for that very reason. They chose evil and could not be saved from it once the choice was made.

    Why couldn't they have a chance like people have. We are born with a sin nature that is bent towards evil, yet we are give a chance to be saved. Some of us countless chances.

    So why weren't the angels who "fell" with satan given a chance?

    Becaus they were already in the presence of God-Almighty. How can a created being live daily in the presence of the Holy and Blessed God and say, "I'd rather have Lucifer, if you don't mind".

    To look your Creator in the face...to be in the presence of pure Light and pure Holiness...and then reject Him for Lucifer....

    ...well, there's no reason to offer fallen angels an opportunity to be "saved". If they rejected God to His face after being in Perfect Glory with Him, how else would you convince them.

    Angels have free-will and their choice was offered one time.

    The angels who remained in Heaven with God and are there to this very day serving Him and ministering over us don't "sin" and "repent". They are not saved, baptized, nor do they have a need for confession before God.

    They beheld their Creator and saw Perfection and chose to stay with and to serve Him forever. That choice was binding and never needed to be improved upon.

    Therefore, no "rededication" for angels, either.

    Their lives are eternal. They will spend eternity, just like us, either in hell or in Heaven, but their relationship to God wasn't and isn't created in the same way.

    I think that is why they are "curious" about us and are interested in our lives.

    Read 1 Peter 1:10-11.

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  8. exscentric

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    You might want to do a little study on what the soul is, and what the spirit is, and what the body is and which needs salvation.
     
  9. Helen

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    Scarlett, are you saying that having a soul REQUIRES you to sin?
     
  10. Scarlett O.

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    No, and again this is just my personal opinion.

    I believe that having a soul makes one unique from any other created being because a soul can CHOOSE to sin. A soul is not REQUIRED to sin.

    Little babies who die have eternal souls. And they are not required to sin. They have a sin nature that makes them human, but they are too little to make that choice. If they die as babies, they go to heaven having not made a conscious choice to sin. They are not perfect as Jesus was perfect, even as babies, because they do possess a sin nature, but they have not exercised it yet.

    Angels who fell from heaven get no other opportunity to repent. And I do not believe that the angels in heaven who chose to stay with God have "good days" and "bad days" as far as obeying the will of God.

    An angel's relationship to God was just based on something entirely different. A one-time, counts-forever, no do-overs, immediate and eternal choice. A choice not based on salvation as we know salvation, not based on "sin" as we understand "sin", but a choice based on something that we as humans probably don't understand.

    I don't understand how a angel could look at God's face and then look at Lucifer (even though he was beautiful) and choose Lucifer and hell.

    No, a soul is not required to sin. But they do choose to sin at some point. Therein lies the need for salvation.

    I believe in my own opinion, that angels are spirits. Having their own personal choice to make, but not about sin. About who they will serve.

    I am not going to staunchly say that angels do not have souls. Opinions waver and I could be convinced otherwise.

    It's just how I understand it right now, today, in my own mind.

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  11. menageriekeeper

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    Scarlett's remarks are what I was taught, only she says it better than I.

    But ya'll keep talking, I'm listening.
     
  12. Helen

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    Just following through a bit and NOT arguing, OK?

    Yes a soul can choose to sin. And the angels also, obviously, have had that choice.

    But the angels are not limited by bodies and so God is not 'hidden' from them in that way. Knowing and seeing God they way they have since creation, their choice to rebel would be with far more knowledge, and without a sin nature attached -- so how could repentance be possible?

    Does the possibility of repentance determine the presence of the soul, or the possibility of disobeying (making a choice) and sinning in the first place?
     
  13. Scarlett O.

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    I just don't know if the possibility of repentence determines the presence of a soul or if the presence of the soul gives one the possibility of repentence.

    Which comes first?

    Maybe I am overanalyzing it all.

    But I just see the angels not as sinners or saints, but as beings whose relationship to God is different than ours. I don't see them as being created by God with a sin nature. They were given a choice, by God, Himself.

    I may be completely wrong.

    And I am willingly to concede that they do have a soul. But I don't believe they experience salvation.

    I just don't think that the fallen angels committed "sin" in the same way that humans do, because they cannot repent from it. "Sin" can be repented from. I really don't know what to call what they did. They doomed themselves to eternal hell with one single choice - never given the opportunity to experience repentence. What is the correct terminology for that?

    And because the angels in Heaven chose God as their eternal Master when given that choice by Him, I don't think that makes them "sinless". That would mean they are perfect.

    Are angels perfect? I don't know.

    I do know this. What I don't know about angels far surpasses what I do know. And that is the truth!

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  14. natters

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  15. Helen

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    I'm sort of inclined to think the ones that fell have a sin nature NOW! LOL

    But no, they cannot experience salvation.

    I'm not trying to argue. I'm just sort of thinking my way through something I hadn't really thought about much before.

    I've always associated soul with personality and the ability to form bonds with that which is not like you. I don't see angels like a school of fish, in other words, but as individuals.

    But then, saying that I haven't 'seen' angels one way or another does seem to imply that I have seen them some way, and I haven't, at least to the best of my knowledge, so ...oh well...

    Lots to learn, later, eh?
     
  16. Brother Ian

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    Angels cannot be redeemed. No soul.
     
  17. StraightAndNarrow

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    You know I didn't post this as if the devil and his angels were going to be judged. I was merely trying to emphasize the point I was making which was that belief in Christ alone is not sufficient for salvation.
     
  18. Soulman

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    Posted by:StraightAndNarrow: I was merely trying to emphasize the point I was making which was that belief in Christ alone is not sufficient for salvation.

    It absoloutly is!!Belief and faith that He can and will do as He said He would.

    Our salvation is specific to man and is not necessary for the angels.

    Look at man as a tree. Our roots (Adam and Eve)were rotten and diseased. The branches (us) are also rotten and diseased. When our first parents sinned all that came after them would also sin.

    The angels were as far as we know created by God without a set of parents. They have no need to pro create. When one of them sinned it didn't effect the next angels ability not to sin. Instead of them coming from a set of common roots, they were all individual trees with their own roots These angels that did fall, did it willingly. There would be no faith for them as they have lived with the Father for who knows how long.

    Man was cursed from Adam on. That is why we need the resurrection. We need restoration to our origional form. Without the second Adam the entire species would be doomed.

    What Satan and his fallen angels accomplished was the destruction of the human race. We need God's plan of salvation to be a free gift. In our cursed condition we would never be capable of doing anything to truly please God. He knew that. Thats why salvation is free. We are not what we wanna be, not what we're gonna be, but thank God we're not what we were.
     
  19. John of Japan

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    I agree with you here. I am a trichotomist, and according to trichotomy, humans have a spirit, soul and body. However, angels nowhere in the Bible are said to have souls, though we humans are often said to have them.

    Think of all the things that we humans do from our soul that angels evidently cannot do: art, music, literature, love, hate, etc. Angels in the Bible are simply servants of God. They carry messages, they fight against demons, they minister to us humans as they did to Christ in the Garden. However, they never do any of the things that prove us humans to be in the image of God.

    If you say that angels have souls, let me tell you, you certainly have to define a soul strangely. If angels have souls, there is little other than our bodies in the Bible to distinguish them from us humans. [​IMG]
     
  20. Hope of Glory

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    Animals have souls, Angels don't. Where does that leave us in this discussion?
     

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