Sovereign or Failure?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tnelson, Jul 20, 2003.

  1. tnelson

    tnelson
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    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John.12:32

    Many declare that Jesus failed:
    (A) If you believe that Jesus meant that after His crucifixion that He would draw one hundred percent of all men to Himself you have to accept one of two positions. You must either accept the position of the Universalist, that is, you believe that all people everywhere are or will be saved.

    (B) or,else you have to say that Jesus has failed because He clearly had not done what He said He would do. All people have not come to Him and it is clear that all men will not come to Him.

    There is no middle ground. The instant you accept as fact the idea that Jesus meant that one hundred percent of all men would come to Him, you box yourself into the corner of having to accept one of these two positions.

    There is another choice. To be realistic and consistent with the scripture we must either limit the quality of what Jesus has done or we must limit the scope of what Jesus meant. I, for one, will hold to God's promise of Isa. 55:11. "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Since His word will accomplish that which He pleases, we must believe that He intended something other than one hundred percent of all men when He said, "I will draw all men."

    In John 12:20-21, "And there were certain Greeks among them that caome up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus."

    Considering this as the context then, we might well say that the "all" which Jesus would draw unto Himself would be "all people" or "all nations." In that context no one would dare call Jesus a failure. But Jesus may be thinking in even a broader context here. Seven times in John 17, He speaks of "those whom thou hast given me." These certainly will all come to Christ. There can be no doubt. He will draw them and they will come. Those of us who are numbered in that number should always rejoice that He chose us for salvation and we should always work toward getting all that the Lord will call into the Kingdom.
    by Larry Brown


    mike
     
  2. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
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    Nonsense.

    Just because God draws people to Christ does not mean that all will follow Jesus. We still have a choice in the matter.
     
  3. KenH

    KenH
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    Do we have the right to limit God?
     
  4. David Mark

    David Mark
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    In my mind I’ve often gone on this endless loop thought process.

    That process starts with this thought: When did I choose to be born? What say did I have in the selection of my parents and my birth? It confuses me, because now all of the sudden I am responsible for my eternal destiny? I don’t remember asking or choosing to be born.

    Someone wanted me to be born to my parents. Someone has been making decisions for me. That evidence is clear because I was born helpless.

    Now I find myself believing that Jesus Christ is my savior. Why is that?

    God must really exist, though I have not seen him with my eyes.

    Dave
     
  5. William C

    William C
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    No actually there is another option.

    (c) God chose to allow man to have a choice. So he gave men the option to obey or not obey the call of gospel which is the means God has chosen to draw all men to Himself.

    Naw, that sounds too biblical. ;)
     
  6. Felix

    Felix
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    If that is the case, could you please tell us why the opportunity to hear the gospel is not given to all men? Certainly we still have a mass of people who never heard the gospel message, hence they can not be drawn by the Gospel. Appearantly they don't even have a choice. What happens to them?

    God bless you

    Felix
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Eric B

    Eric B
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    Thould still disprove your concept of "draw all" as well. For if "all" meant "all kinds of people" (rather than all individual people), then here we have whole "kinds" (tribes) who have still not been "drawn".
    But the drawing means that God has given man enough light (Joun 1:9, Rom 1) where he can realize he is a sinner and ask for forgiveness.
    I know what you're thinking. Evangelism is still necessary because the more of the truth a person is given, the more likely he will be able to come to Jesus.
     
  8. Eric B

    Eric B
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    You cannot compare the two births like that. They are completely different. The second birth is necessary to save you from an eternity of punishment. The first birth is not, so while in that one you were helpless, the second one is so vital, you are given a choice, even though God still ultimately gets the glory.
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    If that is the case, could you please tell us why the opportunity to hear the gospel is not given to all men? Certainly we still have a mass of people who never heard the gospel message, hence they can not be drawn by the Gospel. Appearantly they don't even have a choice. What happens to them?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 1 seems to indicate that creation is suffecient to lead one to God's truth so that all men are without excuse.

    There are other texts that do seem to indicate that those who given more are held more accountable. I don't pretend to know what all that means, but as Eric pointed out, its a problem for your system as well.
     
  10. Me2

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    it is clearly evident by common sense that all men are not drawn to jesus christ "while alive".

    the operation of the father is to draw SOME men to jesus while mankind is physically alive to be transformed by the regeneration of their mind.
    to live and act within the confines of this present environment of Good and Evil by the faith of God, thus being specifically chosen,tested and afterwards called "the Sons of God".

    he is harvesting the "firstfruits" as representatives of his creation now, and in the ages to come, they (sons of God) will help bring into complete fruition the entire creation unto repentance and reconciliation towards their lord and God.

    which still makes the statement earlier offered, If Jesus be lifted up, he will draw "all" men to himself, true. (if he be resurrected from the dead..he will draw all men with him)

    only some will meet their lord while they are physically alive, and the rest, after their physical death.

    so if some doubt that the statement of jesus drawing all men is true. theres two choices here.

    1) he is lying and some will not be drawn to him,

    or

    2) he is telling the truth that all men will be eventually drawn to him and your not understanding the true nature of God and his plans for the reconciliation of his creation.

    thats the real faith choice here.
    will he draw all men to himself or not.
    or another way of saying it..is he lord over all creation and can do what he wills, bar none.
    or not.
     
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Since I am of the Primitive brethren and lean towards the Calvinist interpretation of scripture... The drawing since it is to Jesus Christ must be the elect of Christ!... Why would he draw those who do not belong to him?... For what reason?... He didn't save them!... Christ died for ALL of the sins of some Men... Not ALL of the sins of ALL men!... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  12. tnelson

    tnelson
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    What does "draw" mean in the texts?

    I know you have heard some of these examples, at least two of them.

    1. Some have a romantic notion about the meaning of this word. They want to use it as we use the term to say that two were "drawn" to each other. [​IMG]

    2. Some think of the term as if the Lord is "wooing" people to Himself. :rolleyes:

    3. Few think it to mean "to drag," this is the same word used in Jn.6:44 and Jn.21:6. Those he draws will come. Not some of them, not most of them but all of them. [​IMG]


    mike :cool:
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Christ draws you because you have a kinship with him not to give you a kinship with him!... Who do men say that I the Son Of Man am?... This question is directed at Simon Barjona not any other man... The other men give different interpretations... But talking to Simon... Whom say ye that I am?... Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God!

    Blessed art thou Simon Barjona... For flesh and blood hath NOT revealed this unto thee BUT my Father which is in heaven... There is the revelation and there is the kinship of ALL the grace wrought blood children of God drawn by Jesus Christ... The Elect of God!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    The only system with NO problems is that spoken of by Brother Glen in his short post above. Funny how the answer can be so simple yet there are so many who fail to see it.
     
  15. Me2

    Me2
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    tyndale,

    sorry fella...Jesus Died for all sin.
    to prove he's lord over all, even the power of death.

    He had to die in substitution for all of his creations imperfections (sins) so that all of his creation could be reconciled. and all sin would be covered by his sacrificial blood.

    you like to dwell on "his children" (the elect) which is fine, for the moment.

    yet all men does mean all men.

    your vision of Gods children is somewhat incomplete...some of Gods children are being saved now in a manner that is unlike the rest of His creation to be saved later..
    This first group has a special purpose towards the entirety of Gods creation..towards His "other" children.

    Jesus offers reconciliation to some now.
    His brothers and sisters bring reconciliation to the rest of Gods creation of mankind in ages to come. (in due time)

    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    whats the truth. Jesus loves All his fathers creation and HAS defeated the power of Satan and HAS brought reconciliation between man and their God.
    that God is Sovereign above all and will bring his plans to completion

    God can truthfully say..He's all in all. Its his will. and He is sovereign right? [​IMG]

    Me2
     
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I feel in everyones human logic we want to determine who is fit for heaven and who is fit for hell!... Whereas if not for the grace and mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we would ALL be hellbound... God WILL save all his grace wrought blood bought children and that is the plain biblical truth!... ALL other truths other than that are error!

    By grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself it is a gift of God NOT of works lest any man should boast... Saved by Faith... Not your Faith but the Faith of the Son Of God who loved you and gave himself for you!... Because of that and that alone he draws you by his own power because he died for you and you alone... You are his saved redeemed child of grace who he draws by his loving power and resurrection ready to be revealed in the last day [​IMG] ... AMEN!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  17. William C

    William C
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    You are going further than most Calvinist are willing to go with statements like this. What do you mean, "Not your faith." The bible even calls it our faith. Does God enter in us and believe for us? Where is that concept in scripture?
     
  18. tnelson

    tnelson
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    The song of one so drawn shall ever be:

    "Amazing grace! How sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found; Was blind, but now I see."


    It's all about GRACE!! ;)


    mike
     
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Brother Bill... I have stated nothing less... I'm of the Primitive Baptist brethren we are not Calvinist... If our church had an alma mater song... AMAZING GRACE would be it!... Grace: Unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject!... Did you just wake up one morning Brother Bill and decided you were going to have Faith?... Where did you get it?... Obtain it yourself?... How?... You change your own cold and stony heart to a heart of flesh?... Where did you get your believability Brother Bill if the natural man is spiritually discerned?... Did you spiritually birth yourself?... When did you start believing there was God?... I'm 57 and I can't tell you when I didn't believe there wasn't one and no one taught me but God!... The same one that taught me about his Son Jesus Christ the one who died for me and everyone else on here!... If he didn't then what are they doing here?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  20. William C

    William C
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    I believe because I heard the message. "Faith comes through hearing"

    Why do you believe that George Washington was our first president? Because you learned it. (That's the knowledge) and you trusted the sources to be telling you the truth (the belief).
     

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