Speaking in tongues

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ONENESS, Dec 17, 2001.

  1. ONENESS

    ONENESS
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    I never had any replies on what I wrote earlier last week. So I thought I would make it a new topic.

    Cor:14


    Lets break it down

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    1. Follow * after charity, and desire * spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy *
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    He says desire spiritual gifts, but it is better to prophesy,

    we are getting ready to find out why in the next verse


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    2. For he that speaketh * in an unknown tongue speaketh * not unto men,but unto God: for no man understandeth * him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh * mysteries
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    He that speaks in an UNKNOWN tongue speaks not unto Man, but UNTO GOD. But he speaks Mysteries.


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    3. But he that prophesieth * speaketh * unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
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    But Prophesing is going to speak directly to someone or the church for edification


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    4. He that speaketh * in an unknown tongue edifieth * himself; but he that prophesieth * edifieth * the church
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    He says here that if you speak in an unknown tongue you edify your self(Is there anything there about saying not to do it? What is wrong about getting edified?) But if you prophesy you edify the church.(meaning everyone gets something out of it)


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    5. I would * that ye all spake * with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied * : for greater is he that prophesieth * than he that speaketh * with tongues, except he interpret * , that the church may receive * edifying.

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    Paul says he wishes the everyone of you spoke in tongues, But I would rather that you prophsy. B/c if you prophsy you are greater than he that speaks in an unknown tongue EXCEPT or UNLESS someone interprets b/c then it will edify the chruch.


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    6. Now, brethren, if I come * unto you speaking * with tongues, what shall I profit * you,except I shall speak * to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
    7. And even things without life giving * sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give * a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known * what is piped * or harped * ?

    8. For if the trumpet give * an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself * to the battle?

    9. So likewise ye, except ye utter * by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known * what is spoken * ? for ye shall * speak * into the air.

    10. There are * , it may be * , so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

    11. Therefore if * I know * not the meaning of the voice, I shall be * unto him that speaketh * a barbarian,and he that speaketh * shall be a barbarian unto me.

    12. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are * zealous of spiritual gifts, seek * that ye may excel * to the edifying of the church.

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    The church of Corinth was so out of order. You can tell that is true by what Paul is saying. He is letting them know if you guys are going to speak in tongues all the time and someone comes in they are going to think you are crazy b/c they will have NO idea of what is going on. So he said, its good that you are zealous of Spiritual gifts but you need to be the same way about edifying each other or the Church.


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    13. Wherefore let him that speaketh * in an unknown tongue pray * that he may interpret * .
    14. For if I pray * in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth * , but my understanding is * unfruitful.


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    Paul knows that the tongues is not going to be done away with before God comes Back. Thats why he says, if YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE PRAY THAT HE MAY INTERPRET and if I pray in an unknow tongue MY SPIRIT PRAYS BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS UNFRUITFUL


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    15. What is it * then? I will pray * with the spirit, and I will pray * with the understanding also: I will sing * with the spirit, and I will sing * with the understanding also.

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    Paul says he is going to pray in the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also. (he is going to pray in tongues and sometimes he will not. Sometimes he will sing in tongues and sometimes he will not


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    16. Else when thou shalt bless * with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth * the room of the unlearned say * Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth * not what thou sayest * ?
    17. For thou verily givest thanks * well, but the other is * not edified * .


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    But if you are going to speak in tongues and someone is there with you how can he agree, b/c he does not understand. You give thanks but the other is left unlearned

    quote:

    18. I thank * my God, I speak * with tongues more than ye all:
    19. Yet in the church I had rather * speak * five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach * others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

    Paul says here I am so thankful that I speak in tongues more than all of you, But I would rather teach someone with five words than speak 10,000 words in an unknown tongue
    quote:

    20. Brethren, be * not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children * , but in understanding be * men.

    Dont be childish in understanding, but be men when it comes to understanding
    quote:

    21. In the law it is written * , With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak * unto this people; and yet for all that will they * not hear * me, saith * the Lord.

    It was also written in the law that God would speak to his people in other tongues but even with that they will not listen
    quote:

    22. Wherefore tongues are * for a sign, not to them that believe * , but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe * .

    So tongues is not for sign for belivers (not a SIGN) but a SIGN to the unbeliver. (B/c when an unbeliver hears someone speak in tongues he will know that is the spirit of God). But if one prophesies it is not for the unbeliver but for the belivers b/c the beliver knows that it is prophesy is from God

    I will finish the rest of the chapter only if you guys want me to, but I dont want to waste the whole page on that.
    But do you not see that Paul never told them to quit, he was just letting them know if you are going to do it than to have some order about your selves. Read the rest of it. Its an awesome chapter on explaining that its not over. But an encourgement in orderly manner.
    So let me conclude with last 2 verses in that chapter.
    quote:

    39. Wherefore, brethren, covet * to prophesy * , forbid * NOT to speak * with tongues. 40. Let * all things be done * decently and in order.

    Paul says be zealous to prophesy, and do not prevent speaking in tongues and let it all be decent and in order
    forbid * not to speak * with tongues.

    [ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     
  2. Briguy

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    Oneness, lets take verse 4. When Paul said those who speak in tongues edify themselves he was not saying that as a good thing. You see all spiritual gifts are to edify the entire body, if they are used otherwise it is a perversion of the gift. So Paul was saying, Hey you clowns what do you think you are doing you are practicing self-edfication and that is wrong, Go and speak the clear word of God so the church can be edified.

    Oneness, If you read 1 Corth. 14 with that approach for all the verses you will see that your perspective is wrong and so you are twisting scripture to fit a practise that you do not want to give up. I can go verse to verse if you want but remember Paul is re-buking the use of a counterfeit gift of tongues throughout the chapter, in other words it is written in the negative.

    IN Christ,
    Brian
     
  3. ONENESS

    ONENESS
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    Yes it is written in the negative. I agree with you there, but we our selves do need to be edifyed, there is nothing wrong with that. Sure he was saying " you clowns need to get some order about yourselves" He never said that was wrong he just said it was out of order. Read his last statement.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oneness, If you read 1 Corth. 14 with that approach for all the verses you will see that your perspective is wrong and so you are twisting scripture to fit a practise that you do not want to give up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It is kind of hard to give up something that you dont have control over. Well let me restate that, I do have contorl over it but if I give it up that would be quinching the Spirit
     
  4. Briguy

    Briguy
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    Oneness, please do not be offended but you are mixed up in your concept of what a spiritual gift is. Once a spiritual gift is given from God it is ours to use whenever WE want. We do not need the Holy Spirit giving us some kind of power up or something. Think of the gift of administration (or whatever word is used, you know what I mean) Those people who have that gift use it in the day to day operations of taking care of the church. They have the gift and use it. All gifts are the same, we choose when to use them. They are simply part of us once we became Christians. Keep that fact in mind and tongues makes more sense. What you do is a counterfeit of a once used gift. I will do a better job with this tomorrow and explain more of 1 corth. 14 if you wish.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  5. ONENESS

    ONENESS
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    Please show me
     
  6. poikilotherm

    poikilotherm
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    Since you brought it up, glossolalia (speaking in tongues) has some interesting physiological characteristics:

    Striking EEG profiles from single episodes of glossolalia and transcendental meditation.Persinger MA. Percept Mot Skills 1984 Feb;58(1):127-33
    Transient, focal, epileptic-like electrical changes in the temporal lobe, without convulsions, have been hypothesized to be primary correlates of religious experiences. Given these properties, direct measurement of these phenomena within the laboratory should be rare. However, two illustrated instances have been recorded. The first case involved the occurrence of a delta-wave-dominant electrical seizure for about 10 sec. from the temporal lobe only of a Transcendental Meditation teacher during a peak experience within a routine TM episode. The second case involved the occurrence of spikes within the temporal lobe only during protracted intermittent episodes of glossolalia by a member of a pentecostal sect . Neither subject had any psychiatric history. These observations are commensurate with the hypothesis that religious experiences are natural correlates of temporal lobe transients that can be detected by routine EEG measures.


    Thought you might find it interesting.
    poikilotherm
     
  7. Gloria1

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    In "WE" Zamjatin refered to it as "a steam of words that flow over the dam." The dam here is the Adam's Apple where "reason" is interjected into our stream of words. Hence, the name Adam's Apple to describe the function of our voice box. Glossolalia now becomes non-rational language.

    [ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Gloria1 ]
     
  8. Briguy

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    Oneness, somethings are so obvious we can pass them right by. Have you ever heard a Pastor get up and say I wanted to speak today but the Holy spirit did not put my gift in action today. No, you haven't because that speaking gift is part of that person and they use it when called to speak at a gathered assembly. Each gift is just like that. I don't need to show you scripture to prove something we can observe freely in the day to day workings of the church. Oneness, keep searching this gift and tongue issue out, it is a very important thing to get straight in order to grow in the Lord. I will pray for you and please ask more questions!!

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  9. Christopher Clavius

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    I believe the Catholic teaching is that the charism of tongues still exists in the Catholic Church. The difference being the "blah noises" are not what Catholics consider "speaking in tongues" but the charism involves literally speaking in one's own language, ie. Spanish ect., and others of different languages, ie. French, being able to understand you, as if you were literally speaking French.

    Acts 2:4,6 "And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the spirit enabled them to proclaim...At this sound, they gathered a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language"

    So the "tongues" is a reference to different languages, used by man--whether Aramaic, Latin, Arabic, Japanese. Obviously the apostles weren't speaking "Latin" to the "travelers from Rome--v. 10" yet they understood the Latin being spoken to them.

    peaceChristopher Clavius
     
  10. Briguy

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    Sorry, but that is not what the Bible says. The word used for speaking here is the same word used in 1 Corinthians. There were many people who had different native languages(many nations close together, not like in the US) and each one heard an apostle speaking in their language because their actual language was being spoke. This is what is consistant with the scriptual teaching on the "gift of Tongues" as a whole.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  11. ONENESS

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    See now you have one catholic saying you can but another saying you cant. Brian, sorry, but you cant knock what has never happened to you. And on the other hand one cant deny an experience that has happened to them.

    You can call it counterfit if that makes you feel better, but truth is truth wether one wants to believe or not.

    There are times that I have just have been praying and just a whole lot of diffrent sounds came out and I wonder if That was really the Holy Ghost, but there have been times where I know 100% that I was not the one controlling my tongue.

    You still cant tell me why Paul told the church of Corinth to forbid not to speak in tongues.

    Maybe it was b/c Paul had an understanding of what was going on and 2000 years later we dont
     
  12. Chemnitz

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    Ah new thread, no time to debate though :( . Never fear I do have something to offer.

    Since I don't have much time to spend on this thread, I offer this link as the LCMS position.

    http://www.lcms.org/ctcr/docs/pdf/charismatic.pdf

    you will need adobe acrobat reader to read this document.
     
  13. Amazing_Grace

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    I find it interesting that generally Pentecostals are the only ones who speak in tongues. If speaking in tongue is truly a gift that God bestows upon you, I don't think you'd be able to fight it. Therefore, I don't see why random people on the street wouldn't start speaking in tongue.

    Why is it that this group is one of very few who believe in tongues, and no one else claims to have done it? I don't ever pray and consciously think 'I am not going to speak in tongues while doing this.' I come to the Lord and bare my soul to Him each day, and have never felt led to do this. I don't understand any of it, particularly why those who do so staunchly defend it and tell others that they should do it as well.

    Any ideas?
     
  14. Christopher Clavius

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    What Catholic has said the gift of tongues has "died"?

    Catholics have examples of modern day persons who "had the gift of tongues" such as Francis Xavier.

    This link is to the old Catholic encyclopedia where it rejects notions of tongues that "sound like infantile babble" and gives evidence for a gift of tongues that involves actual language and understanding. The "Gift" of tongues has not ceased in the Catholic Church, as all the gifts in Scripture have not ceased, according to Catholic teaching.

    THE GIFT OF TONGUES LINK


    Peace,Christopher Clavius
     
  15. MEE

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    This my first post and I'm finding this board very interesting. Especially you ONENESS! I'm finding your knowledge of "speaking in tongues" very enlightening.

    Just MEE
     
  16. SPH

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    I'm not familar with the Catholic position, but regarding the Pentecostals, has it ever been verified (scientifically) that they are, in fact, speaking in tongues?

    Can't anyone start to do gibberish and then someone purports to interpret it?

    And specifically with the "Oneness" Pentecostals, they reject the Trinity. Why would God (the Trinity) bring this gift through them?
     
  17. MEE

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    I'm not familar with the Catholic position, but regarding the Pentecostals, has it ever been verified (scientifically) that they are, in fact, speaking in tongues?
    Can't anyone start to do gibberish and then someone purports to interpret it?

    And specifically with the "Oneness" Pentecostals, they reject the Trinity. Why would God (the Trinity) bring this gift through them?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Not sure about "scientifically" but it is Biblical! Acts 2:39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. If I'm not mistaken, HE is still calling.

    Also, as to your word "gibberish" I prefer to call it, as the Bible does, speaking in other tongues. [​IMG] Not nice to make fun of the Word of God.

    If someone started to speak in tongues, as the Spirit gives the utterance and another interpets, don't you think that if it wasn't for real that they would be the first to know?

    "Oneness Pentecostals" don't reject the Trinity, they just know that the Trinity is of three manifestations of One God and not three persons. It's just that simple! That's why God uses anyone who will believe in Him and what is in the Word. Think about it! It's for as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    MEE


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  18. Chemnitz

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>they just know that the Trinity is of three manifestations of One God and not three persons. It's just that simple! That's why God uses anyone who will believe in Him and what is in the Word. Think about it! It's for as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Is a rejection of the Trinity. But that is already a current discussion so if you wish to continue on this line please refer to the "Trinity is Heresy" thread.
     
  19. DHK

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
    Brian, sorry, but you cant knock what has never happened to you. And on the other hand one cant deny an experience that has happened to them.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is the old Charismatic line: "You can't deny my experience." So, just like every other cult you have an authority greater than the Bible--your experience. You trust in your experiences more than you trust the Word of God. The Scripturalness of tongues must stand or fall on an objective study of the Word of God alone, not on your subjective experiences.
    DHK
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:

    If someone started to speak in tongues, as the Spirit gives the utterance and another interpets, don't you think that if it wasn't for real that they would be the first to know?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If someone started to speak in gibberish, as another spirit gave them utterance, and another thought he interpreted, don't you think that if it wasn't for real, they would really be deceived?
    DHK
     

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