Spirit & Soul

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by IveyLeaguer, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    The following dialogue is the beginning of a conversation from another thread but is off-topic there, so it is recreated here. Please note that the tone of this conversation so far is to explore some of the more mysterious things of God, to His glory and to the edification of His people. It would be nice to keep it that way.

    :jesus:
     
  2. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    One question I would ask, J.Jump: Is it our spirit, or the Holy Spirit within us, that wages war against the flesh? Or is it both?

    :jesus:
     
  3. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    Personally, I find that most often, His impressions are in the form of Holy Scripture, which He brings to my remembrance.

    :jesus:
     
  4. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    I suspect that even though our spirit has been made alive, and "translated" into the Kingdom of His dear Son, it is nevertheless insufficient to wage warfare on its own, even against its own flesh. But I think the quickened spirit desires the things of God, and not those of the flesh. I suspect lusts of the flesh come to us through the soul, primarily the mind and emotions. Though different, direct temptations of Satan would come through the same channels.

    It could be that our spirit works together with the Holy Spirit in the battle of the spirit vs. the flesh. Would you think that, to the extent that our flesh is crucified (not positionally, but temporally), our regenerate spirit is more active and perhaps even more dominant?

    :jesus:
     
  5. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    From what I have gathered of Scripture it seems that the only active part our spirit has to play is that of being able to understand what the Holy Spirit teaches us. But the actual "doing" of anything that will stand as gold, silver or precious stone is still actually the Holy Spirit that is working through the members of our body, becuase our flesh and soul have been crucified.

    Now our spirit may have something to do with the crucifying of our flesh and soul I'm not sure. If Scripture speaks to that event specifically I have not been able to find it.

    While works are commanded of us it is only by God's grace that we are able to accomplish them. And it sounds arrogant to say it that way, but when when understand grace it makes perfect sense.

    God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving man credit as if he did it himself.

    God requires death and shed blood for the salvation of the spirit (eternal salvation). And it was done on our behalf through the death of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on Calvary.

    He requires works of us, and has given us His Spirit that will work through us if we allow Him to. And when we do He does the good works and then credits our account as if we did them ourselves, but it was really God.

    That is why Paul could say I have fought the good fight, and I have ran the race, and I have finished the course. He knew it wasn't him, but it was God in Him that accomplished those things.

    Does that make sense?

    EDIT: By the way I didn't come up with the definition of grace, but a friend of mine's dad, who is a pastor in North Carolina. I really like it and think it is extremely accurate so that is what I use.
     
  6. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ivy, Jump,

    I see these things a little differently. I find that Ivy has the same delineation of the soul and spirit as my late pastor, Adrian Rogers, but I could never find out why he saw it that way. To wit, to me:

    Soul = God awareness-self awareness disposition* (self or God's "throneroom") aka - CONSCIENCE. It is the conscience that received JUSTIFICATION (Phase 1 of savlation), "the righteousness of God," which is given to believers. The believer has "the testimony of a clear conscience before God and men by virtue of faith toward God. *A saved person has a disposition of the soul toward God -- the unsaved toward self and matters of conscience are weighed according to one's disposition.

    Spirit = mind, emotions, and will such that SANCTIFICATION is the Holy Spirit preparing our spirit. Yet this is where the battle between flesh (temptation) and spirit (what we know, feel, want) are decided. The Spirit's knowledge, emotions, and will are directed toward the revelation of Christ. Do you see how the Spirit, the "mind of Christ," enters on this level to sanctify our walk?

    Conscience tells us what we should do -- the spirit tells us how to do it, feel about it, and what to want and not want by showing us Christ (I like the WWJD analogy).

    skypair
     
    #6 skypair, Dec 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2006
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spirit and soul

    Our spirit is life that which animates the body and gives it life. It is not an everlating life.

    The soul is us is truely represents who we are.

    The Holy Spirit is an everlasting Spirit that brings an everlasting life to our soul.

    Proverbs 23:14
    Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

    Psalm 35:9
    Then my soul will rejoice in the LORD and delight in his salvation.

    Psalm 62:1
    [ For the director of music. For Jeduthun. A psalm of David. ] My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him.

    Psalm 119:81
    [ k Kaph ] My soul faints with longing for your salvation, but I have put my hope in your word.

    Isaiah 61:10
    I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

    1 Peter 1:9
    for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
     
  8. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Skypair it seems as though you have the definition of each correct just the wrong term in front of your definitions. Switch your definition for spirit to soul and your definition for soul to spirit and I think you are on track.

    It is our spirit that is made alive the moment we believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on our behalf a sinner. And that is because God's essence is Spirit and to understand what He has said in the Bible our spirit must be alive. To act according to His Word our spirit must be alive.

    It is our soul that is in need of saving, because the soul contians our will and our emotions. That is why one's soul can be lost even while the spirit is saved. Scripture tells us that if we will lose our life (Greek word is the Greek word for soul) we will find it in the age to come. However if we save our life (soul) now then we will lose it in the age to come.

    We are told that what does it profit us to gain the whole world, but lose our soul.
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spirit

    God says He is going to put in us a new Spirit.

    This Spirit is a life given Spirit.

    Those who believe in Jesus Streams of living water will flow from within them.

    This Spirit is given life to our soul.
     
  10. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think a more Biblically accurate statement would be the Holy Spirit can give life to your soul. It is not an automatic process as most of Christendom would have us believe.
     
  11. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ha-ha! :laugh: It would seem that I am "out of step" with some pretty significant people, wouldn't it -- A Rogers, Clarence Larkin, etal.

    I guess my rebuttal is that it seems obvious that the Holy Spirit communes with our spirit -- our mind, emotions, and will. In fact, when one is "filled with the Spirit," one's mind, emotions, and will are totally focused on the Holy Spirit/God/Christ. I'm like Psa 109:31 -- I just see the soul and the "God counterpart" of man and the spirit the "Holy Ghost counterpart."

    Absolutely!! But do you realize that in the OT, it WASN'T the spirit that came alive? No -- else they'd have been "indwelt" by the Spirit as we are. Think about it. They could be "filled" with the Spirit temporarily but not permanently indwelt/alive as WE are. And again -- you use the term "understand" the Bible. That's your mind, not your conscience, right?

    Yes, or more specifically, in need of JUSTIFICATION --- having our conscience right with God.

    Maybe this exercise will help -- where do you see man's conscience in relation to soul and spirit?

    I'm not sure I would agree with that construction. Losing our life is talking about losing our flesh, to me.

    AMEN! And in the OT, this meant that above all, the soul must be justified! That allows for the resurrection with the "just" unto Christ and sanctification of life!

    skypair
     
  12. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or is it maybe you "out of step?" I don't know. I think that we process the knowledge of God in our spirit and make a decision. If we choose Christ, we have altered out SOUL forever! :smilewinkgrin: Then day by day we walk "in the Spirit" -- "in the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ" (Eph 4:13) until we are come to the measure of the fulness of His stature.

    Like I said in my first post, I'm somewhat confused by the many scholars who see the soul as mind and the spirit as who we really are. To me, the opposite makes more spiritual sense. :D

    skypair
     
  13. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    The mind, will and emotions are tied to the soul not the spirit. That is why we are constantly supposed to be having our minds renewed. That's why we are to die to self. We are to die to our soul our own thoughts, emotions and agenda. If we do then there are positive consequences. And if we don't then there are negative consequences.

    It's impossible to "do" anything within the spiritual realm that is pleasing to God without a living Spirit. I don't see any Scriptural foundation for those in the OT operating with a dead spirit. It's an impossibility. A dead spirit can not commune with God.

    So if the Holy Spirit fell on someone in the OT, but their spirit was still dead then it would of been no benefit, becuase the Spirit would have had nothing to communicate with that person through.

    I would agree with that statement, although I am sure there are a number that will not :) Not a common Baptist belief.

    Can't be the flesh, becuase that is not the word that is used. The Greek word is the same word for soul not flesh. Now when we die to our souls our flesh will be included in that, becuase if we are walking in the Spirit then the lusts of the flesh have no outlet.

    While it is important to understand what the saving and the losing of the soul meant to the OT believers, I think it is more important that believers today realize what that means to them. Most Christians will tell you that once they are "saved" they can not lose their souls, but Scripture tells us differently with that passage, not to mention others.

    We as believers can gain the whole world, but yet lose our soul, so what profit is it?
     
  14. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed

    I capitalized Him, but you are right I should of put Holy there.
     
  15. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh there would be plenty of people that would line up to tell you I am out of step with "normalized" Christianity. However, I am not concerned with the norm, but what Scripture tells us.

    What I find fascinating is that far more often than not in Scripture it is not the majority that are correct, but the remnant. But now just as then the "majority" would have us believe that they are where one needs to be.

    It is only by our alive spirit that God can communicate to us!

    Well if we choose Christ continually our soul will be altered forever.

    Walking in the Spirit is a choice that must be made moment by moment. But most of Christendom would have us believe that walking in the Spirit is an automatic thing that happens to us without our choice.

    Well the soul is the who we really are and that is what we have to die to each day. There is a wonderful study of the body, soul and spirit on my website called Developing Perspective if you would like to listen. It came from a friend's day who is a pastor. Lengthy seriers, but is WELL WORTH the listen.

    I have some other resources on the subject if you are interested just PM me.
     
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psalm you missed the point of the statement. I often refer to the Holy Spirit as just the Spirit. I don't think that is a big deal.

    But it seemed to me that in your statement you are believing that the Spirit is absolutely, automatically giving life to our souls. And my point was that while the Spirit is a life giving Spirit, He does not give life automatically.

    Maybe that clarifies what I was trying to say.
     
  17. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, Scripture indicates that role and there may be a few others, such as 'bearing witness', i.e., the "Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16).

    And you wisely point to Scripture because, although Scripture isn't silent about the spirit of man and its post-regenerate function, we nevertheless must tread very carefully when exploring such matters, as I'm sure you agree. But I have found prayerful pursuit of understanding in this area to be profitable, particularly since many believers have little or no understanding of the inner man and many others, I believe, have it wrong. But like always, I don't care what the truth is, I just want to know it. So, like always, I will joyfully change what I believe when proven wrong by scripture.

    Yes, I agree.
    Most interesting. This one is gonna take some study and thought. But as you already indicated I suspect that, whatever role the spirit of man may have, it is still God doing the work.
    I LOVE that. What a beautiful description.

    Absolutely.

    :jesus:
     
  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understood

    I agreed with not just with the Holy but your whole statement.

     
  19. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ah okay. Please accept my apology!!
     
  20. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jump, would you elaborate on that? I'm having trouble seeing how the spirit can be saved and, at the same time, the soul perish. I could see it at a temporal point in time ...

    My thought is ... our spirit has been regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Our soul WAS saved when it was nailed to the cross at Calvary, IS BEING saved through progressive santification as we speak, and WILL BE saved in that day when our redemption is complete. And, finally, our bodies will be resurrected, reunited with our sealed spirit and redeemed soul, and glorified by God at the last day.

    :jesus:
     

Share This Page

Loading...