Spurgeon on Limited (Efficacious) Atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Jan 18, 2010.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    Any thoughts on the following quote - especially from fans of Spurgeon?

    "I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of men be added to it." ~C.H. Spurgeon (Volume 4, 1858, New Park Street Pulpit, pg 70)
     
    #1 asterisktom, Jan 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2010
  2. SolaSaint

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    By the grace of God only, amen! If we add our works to what God has given to us then it isn't grace alone. :wavey:
     
  3. Jon-Marc

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    Atonement is offered to everyone. The only way it is limited is that it is limited to those who respond to the Holy Spirit's calling. God does not want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9) and has provided a way for all to be saved, but, unfortunately, not all will heed His call.
     
  4. Winman

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    Well, Spurgeon indeed says a man must perform an action to be saved. This is from "The Soul's Awakening #3389"

    Spurgeon says some very un-Calvinistic things here. First, he agrees that the scriptures say the "dead" shall hear the voice of Christ. This is what the scriptures say, but Cals and DoGs believe the spiritually dead incapable of hearing with comprehension and responding to the gospel.

    But Spurgeon says the man must respond of his own. The Holy Spirit will not repent or believe for him. He says a man must be active in his own salvation. He says a man must "work out" his own salvation.

    Further on in this sermon Spurgeon exhorts unregenerate man to actively seek out and hear the gospel at every opportunity that his dead soul might be awakened. This contradicts Total Depravity, as Cals and DoGs believe it impossible for the unelect to be regenerated.
     
    #4 Winman, Jan 18, 2010
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  5. asterisktom

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    You have no idea what Calvinists believe. Where do you get your insight on us - Chick tracts?
     
  6. Winman

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    Give me a break, I have been debating with Cals and DoGs for months now. Do you think I have not picked up on what you believe?

    I find your response nothing but a convenient excuse. It is clear that not all Cals and DoGs agree 100% with each other, so it is always easy to say that non-Cals misrepresent you.

    This is nothing but an evasive tactic meant to deflect away from the issue being addressed.

    You are the one who quoted Spurgeon, why can't I? How do you answer Spurgeon's remarks that a man must take an active role in his own salvation?
     
  7. OldRegular

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    Winman I don't understand how you can be so ignorant of what those of us who hold to the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace believe. I have posted the following Scripture a number of times and I am sure others have also:

    John 5:25, KJV: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Now you may reject certain Scripture that does not comport with your doctrine but we don't. The Scripture says only those that hear shall live. This is discussed more fully in Ephesians 2:1-8.


    Spurgeon says that both faith and repentance are the gift of GOD.
    You reject that and are being disingenuous to try to use it to prove whatever point you are trying to make. Also please note what I have said numerous times on this Forum:

    "Conversion

    Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration or the new birth. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience."

    Note that: Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person. I believe thate is totally consistent with what Spurgeon says!


    You need to present the above in context for it to be taken seriously!
     
  8. Winman

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    I realize fully that Spurgeon says faith is a gift from God, he was a Calvinist. And I don't fully disagree with Spurgeon or Cals/DoGs on this. Without God's word we could not have faith. You cannot believe or have faith on nothing, there has to be an object for faith. God provided that object of faith, his word. I would agree this is a gift from God.

    Where I do disagree with Cals/DoGs is that I believe the spiritually dead have the ability to hear and believe God's word. Spurgeon himself said several times in this sermon that the "dead" shall hear. He says the man must actively hear the word of God. He nowhere in this sermon says that a man is regenerated first and then hears. That would not be the dead hearing, that would be the living hearing. So he contradicts Calvinism here.

    The scriptures teach that God does not give you the "power" to become a son of God unless you first believe on Christ. So necessarily you must be sprititually dead to do so.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    This verse is not difficult to understand, who does God give the power to "become" the sons of God to?

    Come on, you know the answer. He gives this power to those who receive Jesus and believe on his name. This contradicts both Cals/DoGs and what Spurgeon said above. I never said I agreed with Spurgeon, I was only pointing out that Spurgeon believed a man must take an active role in salvation.

    Now, how can you be regenerated without God's power? You can't. So it is obvious to any unbiased person that you must first believe while you are unregenerated and spiritually dead. Only after believing does God give you the power. This is when you are regenerated and made spiritually alive.
     
  9. OldRegular

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  10. Jerome

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    "If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." ---Charles Spurgeon
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Be nice and give a source and context!
     
  12. Winman

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    Here is the sermon that line came from "The Warrant of Faith", go down to the paragraph that starts "1. First, NEGATIVELY"


    http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0531.htm

    Spurgeon also said this

    This is what I have said many times myself. If a person is born again and regenerated, then why does he have to believe the gospel after regeneration? He is already cured of his sin and made alive as Spurgeon himself says.

    And this is what is so wrong about Calvinism and DoG. It makes the gospel secondary. For according to Calvinism and DoG, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is meaningless unless God first regenerates you. You are not saved by the work of Jesus at the cross, you are saved by regeneration.

    And that is what Spurgeon is saying here. Why should he preach the gospel to someone who is already spiritually alive? It is nonsense and he recognized that.
     
    #12 Winman, Jan 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2010
  13. OldRegular

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    It appears Winman from some of the remarks you post that you have no concept of the necessity of the Death of Jesus Christ. Consider the following Scripture:

    John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    The sheep of Jesus Christ are those chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1:3-6]

    Acts 4:12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
     
  14. Winman

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    On the contrary, I believe the only way a person can be saved is by trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. With me it is primary.

    But that is not the case with Calvinism and DoGs. Oh, I know I will hear a big outcry for saying that, but it is true. The gospel is secondary with you. It doesn't matter if Jesus died on the cross and rose again unless you are elected and regenerated by your doctrine. That is what is primary to you. Yourself and other Cals/DoGs have consistently said that Christ only died for the elect. So it is not the death, burial, and resurrection that saves by your doctrine, it is being elected and regenerated that really matters.

    And that is what Spurgeon was getting at in his sermon. If a man is regenerated, then he is already spiritually alive. You have posted your own beliefs which says the very same thing. And Spurgeon asks why he should need to preach the gospel to someone who is already spiritually alive.

    And he is correct. It would be ridiculous to preach life to someone who is already alive. That is what he is saying.

    You may think this gives glory to God the Father, but it does not, because it robs the glory of Jesus the Son. God has given him a name above all others.

    John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    It is Jesus who saved us by his death, burial, and resurrection on the cross. If you do not trust in this work alone, then you are not trusting in Jesus and not giving all honor to him. And if you do not honor Jesus the Son, then you are not honoring the Father.

    But your trust is not in the work that Jesus did. Your trust is in election. For you have said many times that Jesus's work is only effectual for the elect.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    You are lying Winman and what is worse you are deliberately lying. I posted only a week ago the various events that occur in the Salvation of the Elect. Regeneration was only one of those events. Furthermore, I presented in post #7 on this thread, in response to your post, the following:

    {Conversion

    Conversion is the result of the conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration or the new birth. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience.
    }

    You should note in the above comment on conversion that I state: Conversion is the result of the conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance.

    So you see Winman you are lying and what is worse you are deliberately lying. No one who believes in the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace believes that Salvation is possible without the death of Jesus Christ as atonement for our sins and without Faith in HIM as our Savior and the only Mediator between GOD and man.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Spurgeon on Regeneration

    http://www.founders.org/journal/fj48/article5_fr.html

    To sanctify a man is the work of the whole life; but to give a man a new heart is the work of an instant. In one solitary second, swifter than the lightning flash, God can put a new heart into a man, and make him a new creature in Christ Jesus. You may be sitting where you are today as an enemy of God with a wicked heart, hard as a stone, and dead and cold; but if the Lord wills it, the living spark shall drop into your soul, and in that moment you will begin to tremble--begin to feel; you will confess your sin, and fly to Christ for mercy. Other parts of salvation are done gradually but regeneration is the instantaneous work of God's sovereign, effectual, and irresistible grace.

    Spurgeon on Faith and Regeneration

    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/spurgeon_regfaith.html

    Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate.
     
  17. Jerome

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    Those rascals at monergism.com have "edited" Spurgeon's sermon to have him preach out of the ESV (when convenient):laugh:
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Freewillism; Take Heed

    Spurgeon on Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

    Blessing for Blessing

    October 26th, 1890
    by
    C. H. SPURGEON
    (1834-1892)

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/BLESSBL.TXT

    Now, brethren, we are to praise God because all spiritual blessings have come to us in the same way as our election came, "according as he hath chosen us in him." How did that come? Well, it came of his free, sovereign grace. He loved us because he would love us. He chose us before he chose us. "Ye have not chosen me; but I have chosen you." If there is any virtue, if there be any praise in us now, he put it there. To the bottomless abyss of his own infinite goodness we must trace the election of his grace. Well, now, every blessing comes to us in the same way. God hath not blessed thee, my brother, with usefulness because thou didst deserve it; but because of his grace. He did not redeem thee, or regenerate thee, or sanctify thee, or uphold thee, because of anything in thee. Again and again, by the prophet Ezekiel, did the Lord remind his ancient people that the blessings he bestowed upon them were all gifts of his grace. "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God, I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake." And again, "Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for you own ways, O house of Israel." Every blessing comes to us with the hall-mark of sovereign grace upon it. As the Lord distributed the gifts of his grace, he says, "May I not do as I will with my own?" He does so, and we bless, and praise, and adore the sovereign grace of God, which having chosen us, continues to bless us according as he hath chosen us in Christ.
     
  19. Winman

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    Old Regular, I am not lying, and I am not misrepreseting you either. I think you cannot follow what I am saying.

    By your own doctrine which you submitted, it showed regeneration as the initial or first event in salvation. No faith in Christ is required here, yet your doctrine teaches that a man is "born again", "spiritually alive", and "saved".

    By your doctrine, it is only after being born again, being made spiritually alive, and being saved that a person even has the desire or ability to believe the gospel.

    Your doctrine teaches:

    Sinner -----> Regeneration -----> Hearing/Believing on Christ

    The scriptures teach

    Sinner -----> Hearing/Believing on Christ -----> Regeneration

    You have placed Regeneration, an act of the Father before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as what saves you.

    By your own doctrine it is regeneration that saves a man, and only after he is already saved does he believe on Christ. This is absolutely unscriptural.

    You said:

    I have not misrepresented you or lied whatsoever. You believe a person is already born again and saved before they ever trust on Christ. That is appalling.

    As I have said, it is not Christ that saves you in your doctrine, it is the Father regenerating you.
     
    #19 Winman, Jan 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2010
  20. Robert Snow

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    Real intellectual comment there Tom. It seems your professional shell is cracking under the scrutiny of many non-cal's here.

    As far as Spurgeon on is concerned, although I have a lot of respect for him and his ministry, I believe he is wrong when it comes to Calvinism.
     

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