Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Feb 27, 2012.
So was St Patick a Baptist? Some say he was. Is there any proof?
Simple answer to all of you who want Baptists to go back to Christ historically. No.
Here's an abridged article by L. K. Landis. The full article is on the Yahoo site Landmark Southern Baptist. This site is run by a former (or at least inactive) Baptist Board member whom I know personally. To see the full article, you may have to be a member of the site.
I recognize that using "Landmark" is like waving a red flag in front of a bull to some.
This article refutes the claim that there is no evidence that he held to Baptist doctrine and principles, even if the name Baptist didn't come along for several hundred years later.
I Googled "St. Patrick a Baptist" and found another link to the Landis article I have abridged above from Ben Stratton's website.
I believe that Patrick would have self-identified as a Catholic.
THAT will send the same shivers right back down the necks of those who are Landmarkists around here. :thumbs:
What we have to note is that Catholics were not monolythic in their exercise or views and that the doctrines of the church swayed back and forth constantly until about the time of Trent when they became solidified in opposition to a true Protestant (and baptistic) expression against them.
In AD 387, he very well MAY have followed the Scriptures more closely than later Catholics who deviated from it more and more as time went on.
I will just bet you that Patty had a pint now and again, perhaps some whiskey with it. Wow, St. Patty was the inventor of the boiler maker! :thumbs:
I know that opinions differ on this question. Whether Patrick held to Baptist doctrines and practices is not a hill on which I would die.
I have cited Bro. Landis' essay on the subject. A Google search will turn up many more works addressing the subject. For those who think this is a crock, it would be helpful to cite some sources on which they base their opinions, rather than just making a flat, unsupported statement.
One other thought. One should not let antagonism toward Landmarkism color his view of Patricks belief system. They are not the same thing.
I've looked at paintings and iconography of St. Patrick and none of these show him holding a covered dish.
So I'm going with "no, he was NOT a baptist."
Surely, no one on this forum would insist that there was a point following the death of the Apostle John where true doctrines and practice completely died out.
Surely, no one would insist that all there was was false doctrine.
Surely, no one would deny that there remained a people of God, even a small remnant who remained true to what Jesus and the apostles taught, known by various names over the centuries.
Those people would be Baptist today.
We need a "like" button! :thumbs:
No, those people would be Christian, then as now. Baptist is only a marker that sets us apart from others who have usurped the term but do not follow the teachings of Christ.
Yes. They would identify themselves as Christian. Others would examine their beliefs and identify those beliefs, taken together, as Baptist.
We're talking about today, not the 4th century, of course.
Just out of the painting is Mrs. Patrick. She has the covered dish.
The painter assumed you'd know that.
Many, looking back, have written their histories a posteriori -- after the fact -- to make it seem as if what transpired moving forward without a solid plan was in fact what it was not.
If we adopt this sort of after-the-fact view to somehow "prove" that Baptists have always been around, then we fall prey to the same sort of revisionist history that gave the Catholics Peter as first pope and a host of other non-biblical, non-historical non-sense.
Indeed, Baptists have tried for virtually all their history to be "people of the book" and it was "The Book" that caused Baptists to be who they were and are (well... there is always doctrinal drift). But we don't read backward and say that "Baptists" were always here. We read forward and realize that God set a certain number of distinctives that make up a true biblical Christian and that some have followed those distinctions and some have not. That makes us "family" with early catholicism, which is the primary reason that "some" wish to disavow this sort of accurate historical view of our roots.
In other words, people who formed sects and denominations drifted FROM the Scriptures, but to the extent that they still HOLD the Scriptures they are yet ONE no matter the name over the door.
That is shame because seeing Mrs. Patrick would prove two things:
1) the covered dish identifying them as Baptists
2) whether she was wearing dress pants or a skirt would finally solve the debate.
:tonofbricks: :tonofbricks: :tonofbricks:
If Saint Patrick were a Baptist then he was an odd Baptist. He calls himself a “bishop”. No bishop in any Baptist Church I know. He anointed people with chrism on their foreheads, clearly a Catholic ritual, and he believed in doing penance!
Letter To Coroticus
I, Patrick, a sinner, unlearned, resident in Ireland, declare myself to be a bishop.....The day after the newly baptized, anointed with chrism, in white garments (had been slain) - the fragrance was still on their foreheads when they were butchered and slaughtered with the sword by the above-mentioned people.....
Wherefore, then, I plead with you earnestly, ye holy and humble of heart, it is not permissible to court the favor of such people, nor to take food or drink with them, nor even to accept their alms, until they make reparation to God in hard-ships, through penance, with shedding of tears, and set free the baptized servants of God and handmaids of Christ, for whom He died and was crucified."
Here in his “confession” he speaks about the “smallest “ of sins which in Catholic jargon would be venial sins as not all sins are equal in Catholicism’s interpretation of 1 John 5:16. He speaks about monks and consecrated virgins ( in other words Catholic nuns). He speaks about an “altar” which no Baptist church has. An altar is used only for one thing, a sacrifice.
The Confessio of St. Patrick
And the same Lord says in the Gospel: Men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
And so I should dread exceedingly, with fear and trembling, this sentence on that day when no one will be able to escape or hide, but we all, without exception, shall have to give an account even of our smallest sins before the judgement-seat of Christ the Lord......
The sons and daughters of the kings of the Irish are seen to be monks and virgins of Christ. Among others, a blessed Irishwoman of noble birth, beautiful, full-grown, whom I had baptized, came to us after some days for a particular reason: she told us that she had received a message from a messenger of God, and he admonished her to be a virgin of Christ and draw near to God. Thanks be to God, on the sixth day after this she most laudably and eagerly chose what all virgins of Christ do. Not that their fathers agree with them: no - they often ever suffer persecution and undeserved reproaches from their parents; and yet their number is ever increasing. How many have been reborn there so as to be of our kind, I do not know - not to mention widows and those who practice continence.....
For although I be rude in all things, nevertheless I have tried somehow to keep myself safe, and that, too, for my Christian brethren, and the virgins of Christ, and the pious women who of their own accord made me gifts and laid on the altar some of their ornaments and I gave them back to them, and they were offended that I did so."
Here he expresses “hope” of resurrection as a reward so I doubt he believed in absolute assurance of salvation.
I bind myself today to the virtue of ranks of Cherubim,
in obedience of Angels,
[in service of Archangels]
in hope of resurrection for reward,
in prayers of Patriarchs,
in preaching of Apostles,
in faiths of Confessors,
in innocence of Holy Virgins,
in deeds of righteous men
Do you have a link where this can be read?
Thanks! Here is another link for those who are interested http://www.digitalbookindex.com/_SEARCH/search010hstirelandecclesiasticala.asp
Here is St Patrick Confession
Letter to Coroticus