Standing firm on Titus/1 Cor verses

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Gina B, May 31, 2006.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    How was that for not using a poster's name, but getting his attention? :smilewinkgrin:

    SFIC, since the thread in the news forum was shut down (without prejudice) I figured we could take it here.

    When talking about Bob Grey, you questioned the verses concerning restoration of a brother taken in a fault.

    I responded by posting the verses from Titus and 1 Cor. about rejecting a heretic after the second admonition, which I believe applies to those who are taken into gross sins/false teachings.

    You then stated that you do not believe Grey fit the criteria in those verses for a heretic, as he did not purposely attempt to cause division in the church. You also said that you do not believe that the verses in Titus refer to believers.

    Now for my reply. :type:

    1. Statement: Titus is not referring to believers.

    My belief: statement is false.

    I don't believe a man can be a heretic without being a believer, else what would we accomplish with our evangelism? Are we to mark and reject all of the unbelievers who have heard of Christ and not yet believed? The administration of church discipline is always towards believers, not the unsaved.

    2. I also offer to you these verses: [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

    I believe they blend with the verses in 1 Cor. and in Titus.

    Grey was approached concerning his sin on more than one occasion, yet continued in it.
    Whether or not he meant to cause division, it caused it. There are those who purposely cause it, but the intention is not the issue. The question is whether or not division has been caused.
    Repeated sin cause strife. Strife causes division.

    Continuing in a position of leadership while being taken in a gross fault goes against Bible doctrine.

    Continuing in sin after being faced with it goes against doctrine.

    To harm someone and not make up for it goes agasint the Bible.

    To disobey those in authority (the laws of the land) and commit a crime goes against the teachings of Christ.

    This repeated sin was clearly wrong, clearly violated doctrine, and clearly was and is divisive.

    3. You quoted Galations 6:1
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

    Murder and sexually molesting little children don't fall under "faults." A fault is something such as selfishness, a quick temper, or lack of charity. Merriam Webster defines a fault as "a moral weakness less serious than a vice."

    That's my take on things so far. I look forward to your continued input. I am not standing firm on my definition/ideas of a heretic. I do believe it to be correct based on what I have looked at so far, but there's room for persuasion as it's not something I've studied in depth, and I'm sure there are people here who have.
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]



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  2. Gina B

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    Bump, since I see you're online and we both posted at the same time.
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    Gina,

    Are you reading something I am not? I have not seen news where Dr Gray was confronted about his sin and ignored it. Can you point me to a news site that has this?
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

    These verses you posted plainly show it is not the believers who cause divisions. '
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]...they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ.'[/FONT]
     
  5. Gina B

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    The thread could actually be addressed without even using his name, as I'm more interested in knowing the proper process than in this particular situation. We can make it all hypothetical.

    As far as this situation, yes, there have been reports which suggest Grey was confronted about this by Messer and by another member. There are first hand accounts about it posted on another forum that say the same. A story from one of the victims speaks of the parents having confronted Grey.

    Here are some links:

    Not on news, but person stating personal knowledge:
    http://www.fundamentalforums.com/showpost.php?p=88734&postcount=52


    http://www.news4jax.com/news/9269585/detail.html
     
  6. standingfirminChrist

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    I read the News page, and am curious. Dr Gray has been retired for several years.

    I have not seen release yet by News that the police actually received that letterhead that a woman said she received, and we also have to take in account that letterhead can be forged.

    I also have not seen release by police that emails from past were obtained.

    Also, do you know when the last time that Dr Gray was in that church? I saw where the news said he had repented and stepped down. If he truly repented, what? Do we as christians demand his head on a silver platter? Do we assemble a lynch mob? Or do we follow biblical guidelines and pray for him.

    I know he will serve time. And yes, if he truly did commit these heinous crimes, he should. Apparently, he did admit to police that he did indeed commit some; although I do not know to what extent.

    Has he truly repented? Or have there been other offenses since his stepping down from the pastorate?

    There are many, many unanswered questions.
     
  7. Gina B

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    I'm not able to answer all of the questions you ask. I seem to recall reading that the police do indeed have the letter with Messer's sig, but I would have to go through all the news reports again to find the exact one. I'll let you have that pleasure instead of me. :laugh:

    As far as repentence, if this man truly did what was said, no he did not repent. Repentance would have included apologies to the victims and attempts to ammend for any harms done. It would have included removing himself from being around children. It would not have included continuing in a position of authority, even if it was in another country. Repentence would have included stopping the behavior, yet it reportedly continued over a number of years.

    Lynch mob? If we had such things, we wouldn't have such perverts.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    To call Dr Gray a pervert is casting unproved judgment. The word repent means to turn away from, to have a change of mind.

    If Dr Gray did turn away from that which he did, then he should not and cannot be branded as being a pervert by christians.

    What sins have we committed since our turning to Christ? Has anyone lied? Even once? If so, if you asked God to forgive you for lying and turned from lying, you are still a liar?

    No, God's grace is sufficient. If the crime was not done after a change of heart and repentance toward God unto good works, God does not brand Dr Gray as a pervert, but a forgiven sinner. Are we above God to pass judgment before establishing the truth?

    As I said before, Dr Gray admitted to some of the awful allegations, and he should and will pay for them. But if he repented in his heart of doing those things, then he is forgiven by God. If he has repented, God has taken his sins and iniquities and cast them in the sea to be remembered no more against him.

    Until it is proven that Dr Gray still continues in those sins, we must assume that he did in fact repent of them and that he is no longer giving in to the fleshly perversions.

    Matthew 6:14-15 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
     
    #8 standingfirminChrist, May 31, 2006
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  9. Bro Tony

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    Good discussion. I want to take Dr Gray out of the issue and carry this a little further. I don't know if he is guilty or not so let's deal with the matter of repentence for anyone.

    Let's say a person is caught in sin. Is repentence merely asking God for forgiveness and then not continuing in the sin, or is there a necessity to make things right with the person we have sinned against? Is that included when our sin is against someone else?

    Bro Tony
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    I do believe restitution is important as an outward show to the one who has been hurt, but it is not necessarily a part of repentance.

    For instance, the thief on the cross. He did not have time to come down off that cross and repay every person he ever stole from; and yet, we see that Jesus forgave him his sins and took him to paradise.

    If confession and restitution to man is necessary for repentance, then Christ was lying when He told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise.
     
  11. Terry_Herrington

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    I would say it amazes me to see the extent people like SFIC will go to to protect one of their own (IFB). But I have seen it over and over again.

    Bob Grey is not just a pervert, he is a sick pervert. When he goes to jail he will find out just how much mercy the other inmates have toward child molesters.
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

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    Again,

    The news reported that the church stated that Dr Gray repented of that sin. If he repented of that sin, he is no longer a pervert.

    What part of repent do you not understand?
     
  13. Gina B

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    No longer given in to fleshly perversions?
    Did you just call him a previous pervert, and without proof? :saint:

    As I've already stated, repentence includes making ammends towards those you've injured. It also includes admitting your sins and taking the punishments rendered on earth for them. Christ died for our sins against God, but we will always still owe a debt to our fellow man when we break the laws of the land. That debt has not been paid.

    So we must assume that true repentence has not taken place, and that we are still obligated to shun the man.

    I cannot murder a rape a person, especially a child, repent to God, and then never report myself to the authorities and claim that you owe me fellowship and to treat me as if I'd never committed that sin. It would be more than wrong of me to expect you to so, and it would be reckless of you to allow me back into fellowship after I'd done such a thing and not made it right to the families or paid my debt to society.
    Even under the law, which was a shadow of things to come, the Israelites were not told to make such and such sacrifice to cover damage they had done. If you got mad and killed a man's cow, you replaced his cow and his inconveniences. Your sin against God (anger) was covered by Christ. He isn't going to come down and replace the cow though. That's the job of the truly repentent sinner.

    AVL, I was also hoping to take phase Gray out of the equation and deal with the process itself of restoration, repentence, what it entails, etc..

    Hopefully we can start doing that at this point in the thread.
     
  14. Bro Tony

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    Quote from SFIC
    I do believe restitution is important as an outward show to the one who has been hurt, but it is not necessarily a part of repentance.

    For instance, the thief on the cross. He did not have time to come down off that cross and repay every person he ever stole from; and yet, we see that Jesus forgave him his sins and took him to paradise.

    If confession and restitution to man is necessary for repentance, then Christ was lying when He told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise.

    __________________



    Good point SFIC---lets take it out of the realm of salvation as with the theif on the cross. For the Christian to repent in order to be in a right walk with God, does it require that we go to the person we sin against and make restitution or does it not really matter?

    I guess what I am getting at is that if true repentance occurs, wouldn't the Christian acknowledge his sin to the one he has harmed and seek to make things right? I fear there are those who would say, "I asked God for forgiveness and that's all I have to do" even though they have the ability to make things right with the one(s) they have sinned against.

    Thoughts?

    Bro Tony
     
    #14 Bro Tony, May 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2006
  15. Gina B

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    Excuse me? IFB is MY own. God's people are God's people, and I take offense to you slashing a whole group of them as "their own". We're just as much a part of Christianity as "your own", which is not YOUR own, but OUR own. IFB's are no less Christian than whatever grouping of Christianity your church is labelled as.
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    "No longer given in to fleshly perversions?
    Did you just call him a previous pervert, and without proof?"

    No, Dr Gray admitted to French Kissing in his office years ago.
     
  17. Bro Tony

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    Gina,

    I am not AVL---I like AVL and I know we are both named Tony, but I am Bro Tony from Arizona.

    :wavey: Bro Tony
     
  18. thjplgvp

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    The thief on the cross could not make restitution he died physically for his transgressions against the law yet he lived spiritually because he repented sought Christ and his forgivenss. On the other hand Zacchaeus repented was saved and repayed fourfold what he had stolen.
     
  19. Gina B

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    OH! LOL
    Well...goodness.
    Hi Tony from Arizona.
    I've always assumed you were AVL. I don't know why.
    Now I'm gonna have to go check and make sure which Tony is the one who writes.
    I'm confused way too easily...
     
  20. Gina B

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    Restitution? He died a torturous death. Paying with your life for the sins committed is about as restitutive as one can get.

    Well lookie there, I made a new word!
     

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