Still more wisdom from Warren...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gunther, Oct 10, 2003.

  1. Gunther

    Gunther
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    from the latest BP articles:

    "The message never changes, but the methods do."

    This is his general cop-out. This is his line to try and convince people that he is on the same side and that he really isn't distorting the gospel.

    Is this statement true though? Of course not.

    How has God chosen to reach people?

    1 Corinthians 1:21
    For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

    So, the divine mandate, direction, and truth is that God has chosen both the message (the gospel) and the method (preaching). He didn't ordain poems, music, songs, drama, movies, etc. He ordained preaching.

    About now, someone undoubtedly will wonder if the others God exclusively designed preaching. Well, take that up with God. If you can find Scriptural justification for doing otherwise, go at it.

    "Being purpose-driven, Warren said, is about targeting who your church will reach and staying focused on that target while balancing the five biblical purposes taught in the Great Commission and the Great Commandment: worship, fellowship, discipleship, service and evangelism."

    Is this biblical? Of course not.

    Can anyone show me where it says to target a certain group of people? Are we to proclaim the gospel to the nations or to the younger crowd that has money, influence, and a desire to rock out? Oops, sorry, that one got away from me.

    For example, does Warren advocate a "purpose-driven" church that targets single mothers with more than one kid, a full-time job, and a husband who doesn't pay alimony? Or maybe the "purpose-driven" church that seeks to have the elderly and needy as its core basis? Just wondering. Actually, I'm not.

    One more thing on this subject. How does a church decide who to target? Do only certain people need the gospel? It sure would make his job easier if only certain people came to the church.

    Good job Rick. Keep up the same level of theological barrenness and scripture ignorance. Perhaps someone should talk to him about the gospel.
     
  2. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    God uses each of us differently. Same as He uses churchs differently, we don't all have the same ministries, we don't reach the same people. If we all targeted the same people some would not be reached at all. When a church is surrounded by younger people with children that who they will target, if they are surrounded by older people then they will target them. Each church targeting someone different. We are they only church in our area who targets hispanics/migrant workers. God uses each differently.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Tripe. And a whole barrel of it; and you know it, Gunther.

    God says it is the foolishness of KERUX - heralding, proclaiming the Word. YOU imply that "preaching" (from a pulpit I reckon) is the only way, but that is based on only a limited understanding of what GOD said.

    How was the Word KERUX'ed in Paul's day? Pretty much by Public Proclamation (preaching) and Personal Witness.

    Did it also, though, include Writing? What about every other form of "Proclaiming"? And today, what OTHER means of "proclaiming" the Word do we have?

    The internet?
    Tracts?
    Television?
    Radio?
    Tapes?

    Praise God that there are a few who understand that PROCLAIMING the Gospel involves much more AND much of the same as it did for Paul.

    (BTW, I'm no fan of Warren on many levels, but you are way off in this tripe)
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    Prov. 11:30 says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who is wise wins souls."

    Gunther you wrote, "So, the divine mandate, direction, and truth is that God has chosen both the message (the gospel) and the method (preaching). He didn't ordain poems, music, songs, drama, movies, etc. He ordained preaching."

    I think you missed Jesus' preaching in the gospels and forgot to read Psalm 150 .”Praise the Lord! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord! I think that is referring to worship. Sometime read what the early church did Acts 2:42.

    Gunther, you wrote, “For example, does Warren advocate a "purpose-driven" church that targets single mothers with more than one kid, a full-time job, and a husband who doesn't pay alimony? Or maybe the "purpose-driven" church that seeks to have the elderly and needy as its core basis? Just wondering. Actually, I'm not.”

    Gunther tell us about the people you serve in your community. Tell us about the people you are reaching. Tell us about how you are reaching people and the way you are doing it. Be sure to give us some scripture references while you are at it.
     
  5. Gunther

    Gunther
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. One thing that is truly sad is the number of people who think this verse is about evangelism.

    2. What exactly does praising God have to do with what I said?

    I noticed that you did not deal with what I said, have tried to derail the discussion, and are trying to compare him with someone else to make you feel better about your position.

    I would like to entertain you on your rabbit trail, but hunt on it alone my friend. Feel free to come back to the discussion.

    Although I am not a pastor, I do personally minister to several people at church. They are:

    - a 16 year old boy
    - a 50-something married couple who have found themselves taking care of their oldest son's baby
    - a deaf woman
    - a man who lost most of his hand in a war
    - a couple who have overcome drugs
    - others

    I don't say any of this with pride or a notch on my belt. I am humbled that I may be used. However, none of what you said deals with my critical evaluation of Warren's statements. Pay attention or don't participate.
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    1. One thing that is truly sad is the number of people who think this verse is about evangelism.

    2. What exactly does praising God have to do with what I said?

    I noticed that you did not deal with what I said, have tried to derail the discussion, and are trying to compare him with someone else to make you feel better about your position.

    I would like to entertain you on your rabbit trail, but hunt on it alone my friend. Feel free to come back to the discussion.

    Although I am not a pastor, I do personally minister to several people at church. They are:

    - a 16 year old boy
    - a 50-something married couple who have found themselves taking care of their oldest son's baby
    - a deaf woman
    - a man who lost most of his hand in a war
    - a couple who have overcome drugs
    - others

    I don't say any of this with pride or a notch on my belt. I am humbled that I may be used. However, none of what you said deals with my critical evaluation of Warren's statements. Pay attention or don't participate.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well if I understood you right you stated that the only way to reach people is through preaching and Rick Warren is very weak.

    If you have ever heard his testimony on how he trusted God I would say that you would not say the things you do. He came from Ft. Worth with just enough money to rent a small truck with a pregnant wife and not enough money to pay one month’s rent. But God provided. Shortly after he arrived without a source of income but a lot of faith in the God who led him there he started making it his full time job to meet people and lead them to Christ. His first servants were those in the Bible studies he led. If you ever met him face to face you would see a very different person than what I assume you imagine. I have heard him preach and it is not a lot of fluff. How would you start a church where 75 percent of the people came to Christ through the ministry of the church? No pastor can do that alone. When you look at the commitment he requires of a member and especially a Bible study leader I can tell you from experience that it is more than most churches require of their deacons and elders.

    The people you told me about that you are reaching is not at all through preaching from a pulpit.

    Praising God is a lot of what worship is about. If you look in Acts 2:42 you will see that the early church did several things other than teach and preach. Many missionaries cannot and may never preach in an assembly of believers because it is illegal in those countries.

    It seems to me that you are very critical of a man whom God is using in a very different way than perhaps you are used to. Almost all of the Baptist churches are doing what you suggest and are nearly dead and dying where I live.

    Isaac Watts was heavily criticized in his day for the hymns you sing today.

    If you spend your time criticizing another man whom God is using you are spending your time on an endeavor that is fruitless.

    I know from experience and I have been discipling people for 30 years this year that it is much harder to win people as a pastor than it is as a layperson. I have been on both sides of the fence. I have talked with Rick Warren personally and I wished that I had half of the person characteristics he has. He is a very warm hearted, caring, and loving person. The building he is in seats 3200 people and they have six services. There are plenty of churches that seat more people than that. But Rick Warren feels that the difference in costs could be better spent elsewhere. I think they have started something like 39 churches. That church is not about Rick Warren. It is God sized. He will tell you that his dad never pastored a church over 50 people. He states that the church is much larger than he could have ever imagined. I find him to be quite humble and gracious.

    If I spend my time looking at Jesus face to face I will not see anything good in me apart from Christ. All I have is from God.

    Ever since I met Rick Warren I witness to more people and with greater ease. I have actually led more people to Christ. I meet with more people to disciple them.

    When I first heard of Rick Warren I rejected him and his ideas. I had a friend who read his bok and I rejected most of the ideas until I met the author of that book. Many of the things he said at the conference made sense but were misinterpreted by me when I read the book. A lot of what he does is simply leading people rather than leaving things to chance and Satan.

    If we had a newborn baby we would never leave its caret up to anybody else unless we felt they were well qualified. Every person I meet with I have a plan in my mind for them to lead them to grow and develop spiritually. I have met with people who are pastors and those who have hardly any education. I ask God for one thing; people that want to grow and are willing to pay the price.

    You mentioned, “One more thing on this subject. How does a church decide who to target? Do only certain people need the gospel? It sure would make his job easier if only certain people came to the church.

    Anybody worth their salt would find that quite easy. The pagans in business could tell you how. Anybody in business knows about the importance of meeting people. Jesus met people all the time. You certainly wouldn’t start a service for Spanish speakers if you knew that every Spanish speaker also spoke English and they were only two in town. You wouldn’t involve your church with a special olympics where there are no disabled people. A lot of leadership is common sense. A number of years ago I turned a company branch around in two weeks. The company was the largest in the US in its business. That particular branch had not ever made a profit in five years. In two weeks I began to turn it around. The CEO and owner came to me asking how I did it. I explained it to them. I had never had that kind of position before. But it all made sense to me. I worked less hours than most of the other branch managers. If you do not see how to lead then probably God has not equipped you in that capacity.

    A pastor friend of mine pastored a church that grew 600 percent in seven years. He and the youth pastor developed an intensive youth dicipleship program that covered a period of six years. Too many programs are nothing more than baby sitting programs. They are aimless. Paul says that when we run the race we are to aim for the prize not leave it up to chance and no drive.

    I would suggest that you start meeting about 75 to 200 new people each month. You will develop a strategy and an intention about what you do. Then after you have knocked on about 1000 doors take some others with you and teach them how you will knock on every door in town and how you will follow up on those you meet. That is leadership. Leadership is leading others to do what God has called them to do.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isn't tripe boiled sheep stomach or something nasty like that? At any rate, an apt description of the above post.

    Almost as non-Biblical and fluffy as anything I have read by Rick Warren and Max Lucado put together

    Warren's purpose, (pardon the pun) is to get people to recognize that its all about God, too many people in my circles anyway have developed a whole lot of "religion" without much substance. To follow in the theme of this thread and take some scripture out of context, they are "having a form of godliness, and denying the power thereof"

    His "purpose driven life" is one that is focused on God, not on the selfish reasons why many today hold to issues that divide churches and organizations, and hold themselves up in pride at their "spiritual maturity" because they have never been to the show, etc.

    The Purpose driven church is more of an organizational style than a theological directive. I would say that anyone who wants to say that his philosophy is the way the Bible commands us to run a church is crazy, but it certainly doesn't hurt to focus your ministry on what its goals are, as long as you keep your practice within the boundaries of scriptural principles
     

Share This Page

Loading...