Strictly for the calvinists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I was reading from ML-J about the Calvinist Methodists of his day (My ancestors) & I ran across this excerpt, see attached. It expresses joy & as I thought about it I remembered what brought me personally to really study Doctrines of Grace was the utter beauty of how those people conducted themselves in their daily lives....so this brought me back. Also, I recalled a conversation with my good friend & our brother "Old Union" who said something that stuck, he said "We are Christians & therefore we ought to be the happiest people on the planet".....YUP!!! :thumbsup::thumbs: :godisgood:

    So as an FYI, I give you Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones (kinsman & mentor):

    My argument is, that cold, sad, mournful, depressing Calvinism is not Calvinism at all. It is a caricature; something has gone wrong somewhere. It is mere intellectualism and philosophy. Calvinism leads to feeling, to passion, to warmth, to praise, to thanksgiving. Look at Paul, the greatest of them all. We should not talk about 'Calvinism'; it is Paul's teaching. He tells us that he wept. He preached with tears. Do you? When did we last weep over these matters? When did we last shed tears? When have we shown the feeling and the passion that he shows? Paul could not control himself, he got carried away. Look at his mighty climaxes; look at the way in which he rises to the heavens and is 'lost in wonder, tore, and praise'. Of course, the pedantic scholars criticize him for his anacolutha. He starts a sentence and never finishes it. He starts saving a thing and then gets carried off, and forgets to come back to it. Thank God! It is the truth which he saw that led to these grand climaxes of his; and it is bound to do so. If we understand the things we claim to believe we are bound to end in the same way. 'Who shall separate us from the love of God?' And the answer is, 'I am persuaded'- and in the language of the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists it is much better and stronger- 'I am certain'. It is sure, it is certain, 'that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord'. Or listen to him again at the end of Romans 11, 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God.' How often have you had that 'O' in your preaching - you Calvinists ? Calvinism leads to this 'O'! - this feeling, this passion. You are moved to the depths of your being, and you are filled with joy, and wonder, and amazement. 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!' -and so on. Or take the same thing at the end of Ephesians 3. These are men dominated by a sense of the glory of God, and who are concerned about His praise.
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    Think that IF we really grasped a hold of the concept of God saving us by Grace thru faith period, we would be the most thankful persons on earth, and would have the heart and empowering to share with other what the Lord did for us!

    True Calvinism should produce fruit of thansgiving/appreciation/devotion to the lord, resulting in humilty and service to Him!

    remonds me that when he was still alive and aged, Apsotle John used to attend church, and once in a while "preach" per tradition, he would be helped up to speak and would just say" little children, love each other, just as the Lord jesus loved us"

    As paul said, we can learn all about DoG, know all spiritual things as paul did, yet if we havenot learned to walk in love, and apply it to others, what good are we to God?
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    RIGHT :applause: AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!:thumbs:
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    its always been much easier for me to have that head knowledge, harder to have God work it into heart and life Knowledge!
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Yes join the club.....but God is really not calling us into our heads friend, that is a safe place we always want to go to.

    We are so afraid to touch the flesh of God, even to touch the flesh of one another & understand what God is calling us into. As Ive stated numorious times, Thomas the Apostle is our symbol & storyline for that. So what does Jesus do.....He asks Thomas to touch the wounds

    John 20:27

    New International Version (NIV)

    27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
     
    #5 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2013
  6. steaver

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    I know you said "strickly for calvinist", however, I don't think we are allowed to do such restrictions, so, allow me to wade in here....

    You know what I see from the view point of a non-cal looking in? The passion is not there because the very nature of Calvinism breeds appathy. I don't believe Paul taught TULIP at all, TULIP does not plead with men, there is no point in pleading, there is no choice to be made!

    You know, I don't agree with TULIP, but I do agree with Paul, and it breaks my heart that people will not repent. But why would it break the Calvinist's heart that a person will not repent? Be truthful here, does it break your heart when a person will not repent and believe? Or do you just say in your heart, oh well, they are not one of us. I don't think Paul would have anything to do with the theology of TULIP. It does not teach the passion for persuasion that Paul displayed.
     
  7. Thousand Hills

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    I Corinthians 2: 1-5 2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    Here is a good read if you have time.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2012/07/monday-morning-scripture-not-with-persuasive-words/
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    Why can't you just leave them be. Shame on you.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I will take the teaching of Martyn Lloyd Jones over your opinion every day and twice on Sunday.
     
  10. steaver

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    Ah, this is a christian debate forum where christians come to debate differing points of view about differing held doctrines. I believe Calvinism is in error and that it produces exactly what you are here complaining about.......apathy towards the lost. Paul had passion for the lost and strived to persuade the lost to repent and believe, this you do not see practiced much in Calvinism. At least I don't see it, and when I do see it, like in John MacArthur, he preaches Arminian style, of course he does, because that is what the bible teaches! He cannot escape it if he wants to preach the truth. And then other Calvinist put him down for it.
     
  11. steaver

    steaver
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    Amen! :thumbs: It is the preaching of the Word, not man's word. Here is another one....

    "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." (2Cor5:11)
     
  12. steaver

    steaver
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    Well, let's be truthful here. Let's search our own hearts. Does it bother us like it bothered Paul, when people will not repent and believe? Do we go out of our way to persuade them with the Word of God, twice, thrice, even ten times? Or do we just simply say in our hearts, he or she is not one of the Elect and move on?

    I will tell you this much about myself, it pains me inside, and I think of opportunities of how I might persuade them based on the Word of God, that peradventure, God might grant them spiritual eyes to see what I have been telling them is truth.

    Now if I ponder myself as believing in TULIP's teaching on Election, I know in my heart this passion I have for the lost would grow apathetic. Just my opinion based on what I feel in my own heart.
     
  13. Thousand Hills

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    Steaver, I'm a believer in the Doctrines of Grace. It is hard to argue with these facts:

    http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/those-who-championed-the-doctrines-of-grace/

    This doesn't sound like an apathetic bunch to me, and I have no doubt that the folks here on BB are just as passionate about you as preaching "Christ Crucified". So it would appear that either you have a misunderstanding of what the Doctrines of Grace teach (Tulip, etc.) or you've had bad experiences with those "depressed" Calvinists that the OP addresses.
     
  14. Herald

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    Steaver,

    Apathy is not the domain of one particular group. If you are going to be critical of monergists then prove your critique by making a compelling theological case using the Word of God. Anecdotal stories support your opinion, but they stop there. The Word of God is the standard by which every doctrine is measured.
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

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    You think I am not being honest with you? Well here is a story...will try to keep it short. My brother goes to the Baptist Bible College in Clarks Summit Pa & comes out I think an Arminian then, and gets a job with an IBC in eastern Pa. He proceeds to annoy everyone of my family with being born again & we in turn must be saved. He has this fanatical need to get everyone he knows saved. Thus he alienated everyone he came in contact with. I as the older brother supported his going to the school, loved him & tolerated his vain attempts to convert us. My wife was so put off that she demanded I bar him from entering my house. Bottom line, he was an insufferable pain in the neck. (I would never bar him BTW)

    When I got saved, it had nothing to do with his prodding....in fact he acquested to stop the ridiculous proselytizing that everyone found sooooo annoying.

    What happened to me down line was all of God, nothing of my individual efforts because I was so turned off to God at that point. God directly (without mans help) saved me & I did nothing to prompt it.

    Now the rest of the story is my brother called me one day....i think it was Christmas & said, "I have a credit on some religious items & would like to buy you something as a present," so I asked him to get me some CD's so he got me "CLASSICS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH" Narrated by Max McLean (From New Jersey/ Always attempt to support the local guys). Since I was taking College courses in Wayne NJ....over an hour away...I would pop them in. Listened to Augustine, Luther, Edwards & ah, what a bore that was.

    Then one memorable day I listened to Whitefield's Sermon "The Method of Grace"

    Well that guy convicted me of the "Sin of Unbelief" & that was nothing but a HS delivered message that I was in fact a Carnal Christian & that really wasnt a Christian at all. And the shameful thing is I was disrespecting the Son of Man who suffered & died for my sins. That was an intervention.

    Now do you think for one second that any serious Christian will give up on a sinner.....no my friend. My brother was only a facilitator. He abandoned his frontal attack....I think cause it wasn't him that would do the saving....it had to be the HS because I personally hated God....I hated him.....HATED!!!! & There is lots of story there. But your not going to be the guy to do it Steve. Its God, totally God...1st & last & always.
     
    #15 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2013
  16. steaver

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    Thank you for the testimony! And your last comment "Its God, totally God...1st & last & always"......AMEN!

    Noncals believe and understand Grace, but calvanist believe that we don't. God has chosen to use the preaching of men to draw sinners to Christ. One plants, another waters, God gives the increase. Very simple.

    Hey, my brother was very irritated with me for a few years, always preaching to him. But now that he is born-again, he understands my persistence and is thankful I spoke up for Jesus. Did I save him? No, God saves, we preach. Very simple plan, praise Jesus!
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    To be honest with you, would say thatALL of us still see as thru a Glass dimly, and we move forward and try to apply what we know is the truth of Christianity...

    Good news is regradless if cal non cal arm, as long as svaed by grace of God, and empowered byt he Sprit, lets go out to the world and meet them head on with message and person of jesus, and let Giod handle who He will save, for that is HIS job, ours is to faithful lve for him and witness by words/deeds/actions!
     
  18. steaver

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    Amen! :thumbs:

    We are to preach the good news of Jesus Christ, that whosoever believes in Him, shall be forgiven and given eternal life.
     
  19. steaver

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    Wow! One could easily conclude from this that indeed God is on the side of Calvinism! All aboard!
     
  20. Thousand Hills

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    Or, wiseacre, one could easily conclude from this that indeed Calvinists are on the side of God! All Aboard! :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
     

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