Strong Drink -The Baptist Truth

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by mes228, Mar 28, 2007.

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  1. mes228

    mes228
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    I labored through the 16 pages of post on "Strong Drink" and not one person posted the actual Baptist doctrine. Notice I did not say "discipline" - I said "doctrine". Those that do not know the difference need to first understand the difference between the two words. Most of these posters are argueing from things they've been taught in church or seminary and apparently don't actually know the "doctrine" but only the discipline taught by most Baptist.

    Please read "The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist" entitled "The Believer and Alcohol".

    The position of Southern Baptist is quite long and well reasoned and scripturally based. The short is answer given after several paragraphs of explanation ie "Can a person drink alcohol and be a Christian?" the answer is "yes".

    The truth is, no legitimate scholar, or teacher, or Christian denomination can use the Bible to uphold the position of "total abstinence". Does anyone believe that Methodist, Presbyterians, Luthearns, Catholics, Universalist, etc.etc. are all ignorant and cannot read the Bible? Or have no scholars that read Greek or Hebrew? A scholar that embraced the position of "total abstinence" based on scripture would be a laughing stock. The SB know this. It's a shame that the congregations don't know this. Some Baptist judge other Christians, falsely believing that Christians "don't drink" believing it's a doctrine from the Bible.

    Now, the teaching of total abstinence CAN be embraced and taught as a "discipline" ie a positition that is embraced for the good of society, or the good of the Church, or the concience of un-believers. The SB do not use the word "discipline" but thats what this teaching is. It's a shame that most Baptist are taught this by preachers, teachers, as a "doctrine". It certainly is not a doctrine of the Baptist. It is a social positition loosely based on selective scripture and the horrendous effects on society by alcohol. I do not drink,and do agree that it's a societal curse, especially among the young.

    As an aside, grape juice didn't exist until after the Civil war. A Mr. Welch invented it (Presbyterian or Methodist ??). Baptist resisted grape juice for communion and were the grealy opposed to it's use. Now the position is exactly reversed.
     
  2. Pipedude

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    ...and you still think that you can affect someone's thinking on this issue? You da man!
     
  3. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Grape juice did not exist until after the civil war? That one can easily be refuted by reading the works of Josephus who lived back in the first century AD. Josephus wrote how one could make non-alcoholic wine from the juice of the grape even back then.
     
  4. mes228

    mes228
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    Drink

    Grape juice from freshly squeezed grapes has always existed, in season. The ability to keep from fermenting (and becoming alcoholic) was discovered/invented by Mr. Welch who was a Pastor. I can't always trust my memory but I believe he was Presbyterian from Michigan. Welches Grape Juice is/was his company. This was shortly after the Civil War. Prior to Welch there was little that could be done to prevent fermenting. Yeast is a natural substance floating in the air. Any sugary substance is quickly seeded and becomes alcoholic in short order. Wine is the natural result of grape juice storage. Or any juice storage for that matter. If you lived on a farm you probably have seen silage become alcoholic. And drunken farm animals from eating i's residuals later in the year. Dizzy chickens are not that rare. It's a natural process that's almost impossible to avoid. Yeast is everywhere. We Baptist fought the implementation of grape juice for communion for quite some time. Funny how things change isn't it?
     
  5. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Great signature!
     
  6. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    According to the writings of Columella, grape juice was indeed produced and preserved even before the second century A.D.
     
  7. mes228

    mes228
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    Strong Drink

    Sorry, Dr. Welch was a Methodist Minister, not Presbyterian. He hailed from Vineland New Jersey. I guess I'm old and feeble minded. Take care.
     
  8. Linda64

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    WINE

    The following study is by Bruce Lackey:

    The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent it from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

    In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into a thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

    I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

    [Editor's Note: One point of Patton's book is that the making of alcoholic wine requires input from man. It requires the addition of certain additives (though it might be something as simple as sugar) and the control of temperature, etc. The natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state.The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing. Natural process are PERVERTED by man.]

    Way of Life Encyclopedia
     
  9. DQuixote

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    Linda, as usual, your posts are right on and informative. I object to only one portion:

    In the King's English it is "I recommend the book titled......."

    :laugh:
     
  10. npetreley

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    That's for those who want to make wine out of sugarless grapes.
     
  11. Baptist Believer

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    Can you give me a specific reference to this? I'd like to check out your assertion.
     
  12. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    I have that here amongst my library here and will try to get the reference up to you.

    I did post the reference to Columella's writings in the 1st century A.D. and his assertion that non alcoholic grape juice could be and was preserved back then.
     
  13. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    The Jewish War 7:296-298 296 for here was laid up grain in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of vegetables and dates heaped up together; 297 all which Eleazar found there when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and fully ripe, and no way inferior to such fruits recently harvested, although they were little short of a hundred years {a} from the storage of these provisions [by Herod], till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not rotted all that while; 298 nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long, this fortress being so high, and so free from the mixture of all earth-born and muddy particles of matter.

    Josephus - The Jewish War 7:296
     
  14. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    excerpt from 'Wine in the Bible' by Samuele Bacciochii


    Since the preservation of grapes was indeed practiced as recorded by historical figures from the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D., the juice squeezed or pressed from these grapes would also be preserved in a non-alcoholic substance.
     
  15. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Cited by William Patton 'Bible Wines: The Laws of Fermentation and Wines of the Ancients' page 27,28
     
    #15 His Blood Spoke My Name, Mar 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2007
  16. ituttut

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    I wonder what Noah would say to this?
     
  17. Allan

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    The same thing Bruce L. stated:
    He doesn't state they CAN'T under the right conditions, but that if do it will sour rather quickly. I doubt this souring took hours but more like days, however it was not something that took place with bottle of juice made. Rather. it was something man learned to do from a seldom but natural process in which he refined to be able to make the liquor faster and consistantly which also will last longer (and in our day mutliple times stronger with the distilling process) than the natural process.
     
    #17 Allan, Mar 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2007
  18. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Columella recorded that the turning to wine vinegar could happen in as little as three days.
     
  19. Allan

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    See, we have a time frame now of a minimum of three days.
    And in the right conditions it to can be somewhat longer, though I doubt more than double that number but I'll even be gracious there and say "why not."
     
  20. Allan

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    If you mean by 'total abstinance' that we are not to touch alcohal in any manner for any reason. Then I agree with you. Scripture states from Paul to Timothy that a LITTLE is good for his stomach problems. We also KNOW historically the ancients used 1 part fermented wine and 10 parts water for drinking since alcohal in small amounts worked as a purifier of bacteria which grows rapidly in warm arid climates. So on these premises and some minor others, the Baptists have held to a doctrine of No to Total abstinance.

    However, they do not hold in their doctrine that a man can enjoy a social beer at the pub with friends or girl just to relax. If so, then I would be interested in seeing the article in which Baptists have encouraged or endorsed it.

    Over the past couple of hundred years during the Great Awakenings and Great Revivals, you will find something very interesting in those sermons by those men of God called forth the shake the very Nations with the Word of God. They preached basically against sin and Gods judgment comming (obvisously), but also against specific sins like harlotry, adultry, murder, and alcohal as a beverage. So Mr. Welch was not the ONLY person proclaiming abstinance, though he may have felt that he was. History and those sermons preserved dispay the proclaimation to turn from their liquor and never return but to turn to God.

    Do I beleive drinking alcohal if forbidden in all forms to man? No.
    There are even times a person can drink it if appropiate but it should not be the norm much less the drink of choice.

    However, for me it is not so much about abstenance from alcohal as a beverage and if scripture says infactically yes or no. It (for me) is about my brothers and sisters in Christ and THEIR growth over my own wants and desires for self.

    What I have found however that is most disturbing, is people who drink and claim to be believers will not yeild their liquor nor refrain from it as a bervage absolutely, EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW it is a stumbling block to another brother. They show no love towards their brethren that they may continue in their own desire and not live (as Paul states) for the edification and growth of other believers. Paul said whether in meat or DRINK if it cause a brother to stumble I will NEVER partake agian. He doesn't say I will do it in the privacy of my own home, or when they are not around but that he WILL NEVER do it.
    Couple that with Paul expounding more on this understanding of meat and drink and the brethren in 1 Cor.
    Take heed lest ye fall.
    We are here to grow in Christ Jesus and for the growth and edification of the saints of God as we proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    We are to LOVE the brethren at our OWN cost.

    To me, being in America, that cinches it. For alcohal here is a stumbling block to countless millions both saved and not saved. But for their sakes I will not drink while the world stands that I CAN NOT make any brother to fall.
     
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