Submit to Nero

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by Aaron, Jan 1, 2013.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron
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    Richard Wurmbrand:*
    On religion, [Patrascanu] said, "I passed through all that at school. I used to pray, but later I gave it up."

    I asked him why.

    "Your Jesus asks too much. Especially when one is young."

    I said, "I've never thought myself that Jesus asks anything from men. When my son Mihai was small, I gave him money to buy me a birthday present. So Jesus gives the virtues he seems to ask for and makes us better characters. But perhaps you didn't have good religious teachers."

    "Probably. They're not too common." Patrascanu sat up and yawned. "Besides, there's a lot in Christianity I can't swallow."

    "For example?"

    "Humility, and especially submission to tyranny. Take St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans. It says all authority is from God, so we must behave ourselves, pay our taxes promptly and not kick against the pricks—this at a time when the ruler of the world was Nero!"

    I said, "Read the Bible again and you'll find it full of revolutionary fire. It starts with the Jewish slaves revolting against Pharaoh. It goes on with Samuel, Jael, Jehu and many other rebels against tyranny. Before going further, ask yourself how the authority approved by God came to power. It's usually the result of an upheaval—so submission to authority means submission to those who have made a successful revolution. Washington became an authority by overthrowing the English."

    "As Lenin overthrew the Tsars," Patrascanu put in.

    "Only to introduce a worse terror.** The man will come who will end the Communist tyranny, too, and bring free government. Then he will build the authority from God. Then we should submit. The real teaching in this part of Scripture is not submission to tyrants, but avoidance of useless bloodshed in revolutions which have no chance."

    Patrascanu said, "What about 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars? . . . "

    "The first Caesar was a usurper," I said, "even in Rome. He was a general who had made himself dictator. His successors had no more right in Palestine, which became a Roman colony by force, than the Russians have here. So it's clear that Jesus meant, 'Give Caesar what we owe him, a boot in the backside, and pitch him out.'"
    *Richard Wurmbrand suffered under Nazism and Communism. This quote is from the book In God's Underground.

    ** . . . for rulers are not a terror, Romans 13




     
  2. Aaron

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    Please stop using the Bible to trick people into ceding their rights to tyrants.
     
  3. saturneptune

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    Each Christian has the Holy Spirit as a guide. Each Christian has common sense. There is a duty to obey authority in power and our conduct day to day should align with our nations law and God's law. Most on this board use this issue to defend their political view at the moment. One can argue one way or the other. If Bush is in office, obey ordained authority. If Obama is in office, oppose it because it is ungodly.

    That is not the way it works. If there is a need to remove a governing authority, then the Lord will let us know, and give us the means to accomplish that goal. Comparing our present United States government, to Hitler, Stalin, Caesar, Hussein, etc, because one does not agree with its policies, shows a total lack of understanding of Scripture, the liberties and freedom we enjoy or history.

    As was said above, it is a common issue to prove a personal agenda depending on who is in office. What a crock.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

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    :1_grouphug::thumbs::godisgood:
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    What he said.
     
  6. poncho

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    If each Christian had common sense we wouldn't keep voting for the people who keep creating all the problems.

    We vote for them. They create the problems. We complain about the problems they create then we vote for them again.

    Sounds more like insanity than common sense to me.

    Every American could – literally – be labeled a suspected terrorist under current governmental criteria.

    As Robert Gellately of Florida State University has highlighted, Germans under Hitler denounced their neighbors and friends not because they genuinely believed them to be a security threat, but because they expected to selfishly benefit from doing so, both financially, socially and psychologically via a pavlovian need to be rewarded by their masters for their obedience.

    Wonder how they come by this "pavlovian need to be rewarded by their masters for their obedience"?
     
    #6 poncho, Jan 2, 2013
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  7. Earth Wind and Fire

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  8. Aaron

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    Do you base this on your "Holy Spirit as a guide/common sense" hermeneutic, or are you basing this on something written?

    Read it again. That is not what was said. Your premise being fallacious, the rest of your post is rendered irrelevant.

    Does, as the Communist said, the Bible teach submission to tyranny? Or is Wurmbrand closer to the truth?
     
    #8 Aaron, Jan 2, 2013
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  9. pinoybaptist

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    I don't know about that anymore. Consider the following: In so-called "Christendom" there are those who do not believe in a Holy Trinity, nor that Sunday is indeed the Lord's Day (ever heard of the 7th day Baptists?), nor that man is a trichotomy, a fallen human being, nor that God sovereignty exercises his grace and mercy on whom He chooses to. You can google the rest, brother.
    If each Christian has the Holy Spirit as a guide, then it's the Christian who has the Holy Spirit by His soft nose. lol.


    Oooopppsss !! (to wife: sorry honey, almost slipped off my chair. won't happen again. promise.)

    Our nation's laws now include the laws of some states, two of which are neighboring mine, that says same sex deviants can now marry each other. There is NO provision, as far as I know, that says churches and ordained ministers can opt-out of this requirement if their beliefs dictate them to.
    Obummercare is now part of the law of the land, so Christian businessmen should provide for the abortion of their employees, and then come to God and say, "sorry, Lord, you know how it is" ?

    What if Nero, during Paul's time, issued a decree requiring all Christians to offer their six month old babies to him by slitting the baby's throats and spilling the babies' blood into a duct that leads to his bath tub ? Do you think Paul would tell his congregants to obey authority ?

    I don't know about you, and I only speak for myself, but my political view is not as of this moment only. My political view has always been that government is OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people (secularly) with a little bit more emphasis on FOR. Further comment reserved for more appropriate thread.

    I oppose this current Administration because it HAD NOTHING to offer to the American people from the get-go. Mr. Obama is a narcissist who probably wakes up in the morning to oggle himself in the mirror, and he's got this whole politically-correct-minded country by the thanks to a socialist-leaning mainstream media, and a hypocritical Hollywood. This administration is not averse to shedding American blood when it suits its agenda and purpose. It is a danger to Americans.
    BUT, he's got his four-more-years in the bag already, and the lady in Chicago has her smart phone courtesy of Obummer.:rolleyes:
    'nuff said.
     
    #9 pinoybaptist, Jan 2, 2013
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  10. Tom Bryant

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    Aaron and Poncho,

    What are you all suggesting that Christians do? What's your plan of action? Lots of stuff gets written on here about how wrong Christians are politically but I don't seem to see what you all are doing or think we should we be doing.

    Are you all saying that we should give "caesar a boot in the backside and kick him out"? How are you suggesting we do that?
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Tom, have you ordered your new bushmaster yet? LOL

    Cicero said it all when he made the statement, "politicians are not born, they are excreted" but we haven't learned that no matter who we put in that they will become corrupt. The American public proved this to me when we rejected probably the last guy with any semblance of virtuous attributes such as integrity, truthfulness and straightforwardness, Bob Dole (A Wounded Vet) in favor of that <deleted - LE> (Slick Willie) Bill Clinton in the United States presidential election, 1996.

    Now we as a country, coast along as a corrupt & dysfunctional country..... Makes you feel that your own contributions to America through your time in the military was a waste, right!
     
    #11 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 2, 2013
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  12. Tom Bryant

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    No, it doesn't. I don't judge what I or anyone else did in the service of our country as a waste for 2 reasons: (1) I did what I knew to be right at the time. (2) Just because someone else messes up what afterwards doesn't change what was done before. Does what this country has become make the American revolution a waste? or the 2nd World War? I don't think so.

    As a believer, I have an obligation to do what is right regardless of what people do with it afterwards.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I wish I could be that certain.
     
  14. Aaron

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    The OP cites the oft-mentioned totalitarian spin on Romans 13 and a discussion thereof between a Communist and his victim.

    The question is, who is more right? Does the Bible command to obey tyrants?

    The only response so far that even pretended to respond to the question didn't actually address the question. He posed a different question altogether and then asserted the Bible is ambiguous, but he knows what to do because he has the Spirit of God.
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

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  16. Tom Bryant

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    Tehn let me answer from my perspective. We ought to obey the government until government tells us to do something that is against Scripture. In Acts 4, the rulng authorities told Peter and John not to preach the Gospel. Their response was we are going to preach the Gospel and you decide what the penalty is.

    In Matthew 17, Peter told Jesus that people were asking about him paying the tax.
    Jesus seemed to be saying that the tax wasn't really right, but they would pay it.

    As far as Pastor Wurmbrant's idea that Jesus was really saying to kick the Romans in the butt, he was an amazing man but a really poor expositor of Scripture in that area.
     
  17. Aaron

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    There's no question that we obey God rather than men, and that the weapons of warfare of the Gospel are not carnal. Christ's Kingdom is not of this world.

    But marriage, family, civil government and money are of this world. Is armed resistance to tyranny a righteous thing? Jesus answered, . . . if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews.

    It seems obvious that in matters of this world, violence is an often necessary and righteous means to resist oppression.
     
  18. mont974x4

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    I admit that I am not certain of my position on this.

    On one hand I read 1 Peter and remember the context of that letter. Christians were really being persecuted for their faith.

    On the other the Israelite's were punished by God for not standing for justice. He sent men like David and Gideon to fight those who were oppressing His people. Micah 6:8 tells us to do justice.


    So, suffering in the strength of Christ is a proper response. It is also a proper response to fight for those who cannot (or will not) fight for themselves.

    I cannot help but think about the future spiritual implications of acquiescence to policies that unjustly oppress people and rob them of their future. How does disarming the populace impact the preaching and teaching of the Gospel? It did not bode well in many nations. Even in England where Christians have not been slaughtered the Church has been impacted in a very negative way by the unjust taking of individual liberty.

    I can see God calling some to be stoic and face the persecution with peace.
    I can see God calling some to be modern day David's.

    I think we are in danger if we insist that there is only one right answer here as if God is calling all people to the same action.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    God is ALREADY judging America....Barack Obama is just one more manifestation of that judgment. He's got more plagues for USA.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I know....blame him for the Bed bug crisis:laugh:
     
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