Submitting to his authority

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ivorytickler, Nov 7, 2007.

  1. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler
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    Hi my name is Cindy, I'm currently a free methodist but an ex baptist. My husband and I are going through the Love and Respect seminar series after nearly divorcing earlier this year. We're to the part about wives submtting to her husband's authority and I'm struggling with that idea.

    I've always worked and supported this family (I out earn him by about 50%). What I struggle with is the idea that he should have the authority because he has the responsibility when our reality is that I have the responsibility. I'm interested in seeing how other Christian couples in this situation handle the authority issue.

    If he were the breadwinner, I would understand because he would need to make decisions that protect his ability to care for the family but I'm the breadwinner. He still thinks he should have the authority because he's the man and sees me as not trusting him because I resist this when the problem is I see myself as having the responsibiity and take it seriously.

    Thanks in advance for your comments on this.
    Cindy
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    Your respecting his authority has nothing to do with who makes the most money in the relationship. The one who slaps the paycheck on the table doesn't get to "make the rules". It isn't about who takes care of the child or who does what chores around the house.

    I've said this before, but I repeat myself.....

    A man who loves his wife the way that Christ loves the church is to imitate Christ by sacrificing himself on a daily basis, adoring her more than he cares for his own body, to make her life a worthy one. Not just a worthy mother....not just a worthy wife.....not just a good cook or a kind mother......but to make her LIFE worthy. To make her clean and pure before the LORD and to make her life count far beyond what chores she does. He is to love her - not a feeling or an emotion, but a verb.

    A woman who respects the headship of her husband is to imitate the church by denying herself daily , trusting him more than she trusts herself, to make his life a worthy one. Not just making him some kind of arbitrary and empty-titled "king of the castle", but to make his LIFE count for something grand. To make him a man that others strive to be. She is to respect him - not a nod of deference, but a verb.
     
  3. annsni

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    Amen - GREAT post Scarlett
     
  4. Joe

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    Hmmm. He doesn't work as many hours as you do? What does he do with the time off (if that's the situation)?

    This sounds more like a control issue disguised as biblical authority. Unless you are not very responsible with money, then there is no reason to request more control. Especially during a time of trying to patch up a marriage, that raises red flags in my eyes.

    You need to be paying more of the bills because you make more $

    My wife handles our finances. She makes less money, (but it's still ok $$) gives me an allowance to spend on myself. No certain amount, but it's understood it's not a lot. It makes no difference in our household who makes more than the other.
    I run the business, handle the business related accounting bills yet I can get money out if I need to.
    Since I work less, I do more cooking, laundry etc..

    Edited to add: You are not the breadwinner. If that is your attitude, then it's called being selfish. Prideful comes to mind. I would never use that term pertaining to myself. I have a feeling it is your selfishness with the household money which is the problem.
     
    #4 Joe, Nov 7, 2007
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  5. Tom Butler

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    Forgive the intrusion into the Women's Forum.

    Too many people, both husbands and wives, see authority as equating with domination. Not only is there a Biblical reason that the husband is the head of the family, there is also a practical reason. A family with two equal partners won't work. Just like a business, where two partners have an equal say. There is the potential for conflict and for gridlock. Someone has to have the autlhority to decide something. In business, they call them managing partners.

    Now, if a husband (or a business partner, for that matter) does not seek out the counsel of his wife (or the other partner), he's just plain stupid. If the husband ignores his wife's input, he's stupid.

    Scarlett O nailed it, in my opinion. What she said.
     
  6. LeBuick

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    Great post Scarlett, I think you said it well...
     
  7. ivorytickler

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    Since I am the primary bread winner and supporting our family is my responsibility, I feel I need the authority to protect my ability to support this family. Authority is supposed to go to the husband because he is usually in this position. In our case I am, which is creating the confusion. If I stayed home or my income were supplmental, it would make sense. In ilght of the responsibity of supporting us being mine, I have a problem wiht not having the authority to live up to my responsibilities.

    Even though my husband earns less and works fewer hours, he tries to treat his career as the one that counts. When it's my career we can't live without. For example, if the kids are sick, I'm supposed to take off of work where, in my mind, it should be decided based on whose job will be compromised the most by missing work, whcih would usually be me. He's grabbing onto this idea that the man gets the authoriity because he has the responsiblity only he doesn't actually have the responsibility. I do.

    In my mind, since I have the responsiblity, I should have the authority too. I am the one responsible for this family.

    He "helps" out around the house but still considers houseork and child care my responsibilities even though I work more than he does. He thinks he's great for "helping" me. Which is another area of contention. If I've taken over his responsibilty to support us, why haven't I been relieved of my responsibility to keep house? I do think he should be doing most of the houseowork since he's home more than me but he disagrees. In his mind, he has the authroity to tell me to do his job and mine and I'm supposed to pretend that he's taking care of us when I am.

    With a professional career, two kids and a household to manage, I feel I need the autority to make the decisions I need to to keep everything balanced and protect my ability to support this family. If I lose my job, he isn't going to, suddenly, step up to the plate and support us. It will be me figuring out how to pay the bills. I need the authority to make the decisions I need to to do that.

    Right now, I'm facing a downsizing that I probably won't survive. I know my career, I know what's going on in the job market and know which way I believe I should go. Dh is flexing his authority and telling me what I should do only it's not going to work. He doesn't understand how things work in my profssion. This is creating a lot of stress for us right now. If I follow his advice, I'm going to be out of work. I don't think I can win here.

    If I take the authority I need to to make the decisions I need to to protect my ability to support us, he's angry because I'm taking his authority. If I listen to him, I'm going to end up out of work and then have to live with him being angry because I'm not supporting us. I do not get why the man still has the authority when he's not supporting the family. I need it to protect my ability to support us.

    I'm sorry but I am the breadwinner. Without my income, we don't eat. Without his, we'd be fine. Why is it prideful for me to call myself the breadwinner in exactly the situation a man would call himself the breadwinner? The breadwinner is the person who supports the family. That would be me.

    Edited to add: I am the one who is responsible with money. One of his issues with me is I save too much, in his mind, in my 401K. He says that's why we have money problems. I've tried to institute a budget but he says we don't need one because we have plenty of income. He kind of fritters away money. If he wants steak for dinner then it's steak for dinner regardless of what we've already spent on groceries that week.

    Me, I'm a saver. I look at all we have, feel very blessed and a STRONG sense of responsibllity to take care of it. I feel like God has given us so much and that we need to take care of it not only to take care of ourselves but for whatever purpose God granted us so much. I don't know if God has given us what we have now so we can prepare for a future that may not be so lush or because we're intended to do something with it but I know we are not taking care of what he's given us. That bothers me. I hate the tiny little check he lets me write to the church too. To have so much and give back so little isn't right but my pastor says it's not worth having stress in the household over.

    This whole authority issue hits in so many areas that I stress over.
     
    #7 ivorytickler, Nov 8, 2007
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  8. ivorytickler

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    I agree on there needing to be one head but, in my mind, the head of the household should be the person who bears the responsibility for the household and that would be me. It's my responsibility to earn the income that supports us and my responsibility to protect my ability to support this family.

    I see my husband having the authority in this situation the same as a wife having authority in a situation where her husband bears the responsibility for the family. I see both cases as wrong.

    While it's usually the man who bears responsibility for the family, and he should have the authority when that is the case, sometimes, it's the woman who bears responsibility for the family. Thngs can't run the same when that happens.

    I'm not sure what to do. Seems we share everything execpt the authority and the housework. He wants the authority and I'm still expected to come home to my second shift pretending that he's the one responsible for us when I know that I am.
     
    #8 ivorytickler, Nov 8, 2007
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  9. ivorytickler

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    Sorry to serial post but my last two posts got me thinking (dangerous thing I know :lol).

    Putting who is responsible for the family aside, what is a wife to do when she disagrees with her husbands decisisions?

    I mentioned above the small amount he allows to be given to the church. He says that the bible never intended a tithe on wages but rather on your increase, as in you look at how much you gained in the year and tithe on that (only he doesn't do this either). I can see taking it that way BUT in this day and age how do you determine your increase? What portion of our $200 grocery bill was necessary expenditure and what was spending the increase? We spend way more than we have to so we can't simply look at our increase. And what do you do in a year like this one when we spent a bundle on lawyers and lost money on our house?

    Ok, I can agree God probably didn't intend a tithe on a paycheck and the bible is clear about rendering unto Ceasar his due so I wouldn't have to tithe that and I can see making the argument God didn't intend us to tithe what we NEED to live but there's this whole gray area of what's necessary to spend and what isn't.

    So, I'm still in the we should be tithing some portion of our income not an increase because I'm not raising sheep here to go out and count at the end of the year and give God a tithe on. Only I'm writing a little check to the church each week that comes to less than 3% of our take home pay.

    Money is at the center of so many of our issues. My feeling that we are blessed and should give back conflicts with his wanting to keep everything, my desire to save conflicts with his desire to simply spend what he wants when he wants and ot have to think about it, and then there's the job situation thing.

    So what is a wife to do when she disagrees with her dh? Especailly one who isn't tithing HER income because he dh says not to. Does the biblical command to tithe override my husband's authority?
     
    #9 ivorytickler, Nov 8, 2007
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  10. I Am Blessed 24

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    Submission is not an option.

    True submission comes from loving your husband no matter who makes the money.

    If two people love one another as Christ loved the church, submission is not a problem because they will both be submitting to each other.

    I do not work, but I handle our money because I am better at it. Should my husband decide to take over the finances, they would be a mess, but that is the way it would have to be. I am not to usurp authority over him.

    We discuss things in our family, but my husband has the final say because God says it should be that way.

    If he makes a wrong decision, he will have to answer to God for that, not me.

    If you can't have everything in order (tithe, etc.) you CAN be in order in your home.

    Like it or not, you are not arguing with your husband, you are arguing with God.

    No. When you are not submitting to your husband...you are not submitting to God.

    Until you get this 'headship' thing in order, I fear nothing else will be in order in your marriage.

    Also, never forget, you can say NO submissively.

    I'm glad I'm not the 'boss' in our family. I wasn't created for all the headaches. My husband was and I am his helpmeet.

    If your husband became disabled, would you feel like you had the right to take over headship? If you said yes, you answered wrong.

    God did not give out exceptions. He said there is to be one head and that is the man. He says nothing about who earns the most money.

    The Proverbs 21 woman worked every day and made her husband and the community proud of her, yet she was submissive to her husband.

    We cannot go against what the Bible says just because we don't like it. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow...
     
  11. Scarlett O.

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    Again, IvoryTickler, you are confusing the headship of a husband with money and "power". The husband, who is the head, leads his family. He does not rule over them. He does not boss them around. He does not get the "last word."

    You are making a powerplay out of headship and a doormat-concept out of submission.

    You are wrong on both counts. In my home, as a child, my mother and father both worked. She handled all of the finances. She cooked. He cleaned. She did the laundry. He bought the groceries.

    There was no power struggle. He loved her by his actions. She respected him by her actions. The were and are one-flesh.

    He led our home.... BY EXAMPLE.

    She followed his lead out of respect and not duty nor servanthood.

    This money issue that you are so concerned about has absolutely nothing to do with the roles of a husband and wife.
     
  12. ivorytickler

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    So I am simply to do as he says. Not tithe. Not save. Not prepare for the future. Take the job he wants me to in spite of knowing it will lead to financial disaster. This is God's plan for me? Why did God bother to give me a brain. I certainly don't need one.

    Maybe my solution is going through with the divorce. I can't do this. I can't jeopardize my ability to support my family. I am the one who is responsible for us, he is not. He chose to not be responsible for us so it fell to me to do it. I have to take that responsiblity seriously. To do as he says will lead to disaster. I can't pay the bills on unemployment and he can't pay them working and I really don't want to live with him berrating me because of my failure to earn enough to support us and it will come to that. He expects me to support us and I can but not if I go the direction he wants. He refuses to see what is happening in the industry I'm in. Moving out of it is my only choice if I want to be able to support my family in perpetuity but I won't earn as much. I consider that a small trade off for actually having a job. He wants me to go for $$ I really can't get and if I could, could only earn for a short while until the next head count reduction. He refuses to see that my insustry is leaving the country and there won't be a job left for me if I don't find something else.

    While I commend your mother for doing it all, I'm not her. I'm exhausted and stressed. Your mother must have been a saint to have carried the burden of supporting your family, caring for your family and just doing whatever her husband said becuase he is male. I have some hard decisions to make and I need to make them in the best interest of my family.

    I was hoping there was some kind of workable solution here. Simply doing as he says is not it. That will lead to certain disaster. What makes me very sad is that if we'd taken care of what we've had all these years, this wouldn't even be an issue. I never should have let him move back in.

    Thanks. I was hoping for advice on how couples grant each other the authority each needs to live up to their responsibilities. I didn't realize that God commands me to, somehow, handle the responsibility without actually having the authority to do so. That's one tall order to fill. I'm powerless but I have to live up to my responsiblities anyway. I have no clue how to do that.

    And yes, what you describe is a doormat. Someone who just does as they are told is a doormat. Why would a God who, supposedly, loves me want that for me? Why'd he bother to give me a brain. I certainly don't need it.
     
    #12 ivorytickler, Nov 8, 2007
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  13. abcgrad94

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    What's a wife to do when she strongly disagrees with her husband? Do as he asks, then privately pray, pray, pray! Don't try to force your husband to do what you want. Just do your part and trust God to do his. If that means changing your 401(k) or not tithing a full 10%, go ahead and obey your husband and pray that God will change his heart. In the meantime, be loving and don't hold it over his head that you earn more than he does.

    I think you're afraid that if you aren't in control, you will get hurt and things will be a big mess, right? It's hard to let go, I know. But, God wants obedience from us so He can bless us. He knows your husband's attitude and quirks even more than you do. Go ahead, step out on faith and trust God to take care of things while you obey God and submit to your husband. Will your husband mess up? Probably, but God will teach him a thing or two from it. Realize that biblically, your husband is to be the head of the home and if he goofs up the job, he's the one who will answer for it, not you.
     
  14. Joe

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    Hello ivorytickler

    Thanks for the reply.
    I held a professional job for some years before becoming a Contractor due to problems with my eyes. I was out mingling in the community constantly due to my job. I worked with the community, businesses and organizations.
    I became a Christian later in life.

    If you really want advice, please be upfront ok. I will be gentle with the reply, and know I prayed for you. I will continue to pray. This is a anonymous Christian Board unless you choose to give out personal info, but so far, you haven't.
    Ok now....



    What is his name? Do you work with him?

    .
     
    #14 Joe, Nov 8, 2007
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  15. ivorytickler

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    No I don't work with him. He's in a different field.

    Yes I would like advice. How do I live up to my responsibility to support my family when I don't have the autority to make the decisions I need to to do that? Does God really think this little of women? This just blows me away. It's ok to give me the responsibility but not the authority when they should go hand in hand. I'm not afraid of responsiblity but I can't live up to it if I can't make the decisions.

    I understand men having the authority when they have the responsibility but I have the responsibility. That I have with my husbands blessing. He's more than happy to have me support the family. Which is fine but how do I do that if I lack the authority to make the decisions I need to make in order to do it?

    For example, if I handled my customers the way my husband says I should,I would have been fired long ago. I've jus stopped telling my husband what happens at work because I know he's going to tell me what I should do and I'm not about to handle things the way he tells me to.

    Okay, in God's eyes, do women have any authority to make decisions regarding their own lives? Why am I given the responsiblity to support my family if I don't have the ability to make the decisions I need to?
     
    #15 ivorytickler, Nov 8, 2007
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  16. ivorytickler

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    I have to disagree. If he goofs, it's up to me to fix it. Especially where the kids are concerned. If my children are harmed by his decisions I cannot stand there and pretend I'm blameless. I'm just as guilty if I stand back and let it happen. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. Doing nothing is a sin when you know what's happening is going to hurt someone else.
     
  17. abcgrad94

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    I'm not talking about obvious abuse. If your kids are starving or being physically abused or something serious like that, of course you shouldn't stand there and let it happen. I'm talking about more minor areas where you might disagree, like the tithing or even you staying home with the kids when they are sick. If he's gambling away your paycheck and you're kids are going hungry, I can understand your wanting to keep the money away from him. If it's just a power struggle, though, that's something different.

    Let me share this example. My husband is NOT a handyman. Early in our marriage I would get so frustrated because whenever he tried to fix something (car, appliances, or home improvement type stuff) he always botched it up and we ended up spending more money in the long run to have someone else fix his mistake on top of the original problem. His goofs caused me inconvenience and frustration, especially when money was tight.

    I finally had to let it go and LET him mess up without making the decisions for him, or fighting his attempts to do things his way. Yes, we could have saved money doing things my way. Yes, I was right and he was wrong, but when I finally stopped trying to control everything and fix his mistakes, God taught him some things (and me too, for that matter.) So what if we don't have a big retirement account or if our kids have to work their way through college (as I did.) God has provided our basic needs and our home is much happier now.

    If your husband is just irresponsible, it may be that he needs to hit "rock bottom" financially before he can become the leader he should be. If you keep covering for him, he won't wake up and change.
     
  18. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Ivorytickler:

    I don’t presume to intrude on the women’s forum but your post screams for attention. I will be praying for you and your husband. It sounds like you have a lot of work to do.

    You have been given some great advice here already. You know what the bible says, who are you arguing with? I know I am reading between the lines but to me it sounds like you have been hurt and that your real problem is one of trust. Can you trust your husband? Can you trust God to take care of your family regardless of your job situation? Let me tell you what happened to me.

    I have been caught up in downsizing several times and the first couple times God provided a new job before I was even let go. I gave my testimony several times during stewardship campaigns about how God took care of us even when I lost jobs. I thought I had faith that God to take care of me. Actually I had faith in my own ability and the demand for people like me in the workplace. What I had was not really faith but pride.

    Then one day I was dismissed without warning. I was blackballed locally and went on unemployment for 6 months. Finally I landed a lower paying job with an hour commute.

    From your posts I would venture to say I was not in near as good a financial situation you are. You have savings and retirement? I had none. I had (and still have) revolving debt in excess of my annual salary plus mortgage, car, and all the other expenses of life. My wife was at the time a stay at home mom and we had (still do) four children. I was living paycheck to paycheck spending every dime and my unemployment came to less than 20% of my take home pay before I lost my job. It was impossible for us to make ends meet.

    But we did. I still don’t really know how. As soon as I started sending out resumes my wife did also. She went to work almost immediately, but made much less than I had previously. For 24 weeks she went to work every day and I went to work looking for a job. I took on many of the household chores and she earned the money, but she never tried to hold it over my head or claim she was the head of the house because she made more money. We were late on some bills but we never missed a mortgage payment. We never declared bankruptcy or tried to get out of paying our bills. The electricity, water, and telephone stayed on. We never went hungry. Oh there were some things we had to do without that we wanted. Our revolving debt got worse and now, 5 years later we are still paying that down. There were some tense arguments in our home during those days. There were days when she blamed me for loosing my job and creating our financial situation. There were days when I blamed her. In the end I developed a respect and love for my wife much greater than what I had before. Unfortunately I am afraid I also lost much of the respect she had for me. There were days when I wondered why God would allow this to happen and if he even cared. But now I can see He did and He still does and I have a real faith that he will carry us through.

    I could tell you a lot more but I have already gone to long. Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this. I hope it helps in some way.

    Ivory, I know I don’t know everything about your situation and I am being bold here, but in your battle against submission I see pride and a lack of trust, in your husband and in your God. I will be praying for you. I hope you don’t have to go through what I did.
     
  19. ivorytickler

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    Where do you draw the line? How much harm do you sit back and watch and wash your hands of? Biblically, if I recall, hand washing doesn't work. Seems to me Pilot tried it.

    Honestly, if my husband were trying to live through prayer, I'd feel differenlty. He doesn't. The only opinion that matters is his and that is based on his convenience. In his mind, if I get fired because I keep taking off of work, I'll find another job tomorrow so I can support him. If I don't, I'll hear it every day until I do. What about the harm of my daughters growing up hearing their father berrate their mother daily beause she's not earning enough? Is that harm enough to step in and stop?

    You don't let anyone hurt your children. Not even their father. During our separation, I had his visitation restricted and supervised. Listening to the posts here I guess the Godly thing to do would have been hand the kids over to him and if they were hurt in the process, hey, it's not my fault. I'm sorry but that is a cop out. I would have been more guilty had I not tried my best to keep my children out of harms way.
     
  20. ivorytickler

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    I'm not claiming to be head of the house because I earn more. I'm claiming to be the primary bread winner and think that I need the authority to protect that because my family needs that. Given we rely on my income and he's in position that he can and does work from home on a regular basis, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to share the responsiblity of stayng home with sick children. The fact I'm expected to always do it is hurting my ability to support us. It is not right for him to hand me the responsibility but not the authority to protect it.

    When it comes to the kids, he's perfectly happy to let me do everything until he disagrees with something I did then they get to hear how inadquate their mother is. I am stunned that anyone thinks submission is the answer here. Do you have any idea how harmful it is for my daughters to grow up hearing their mother talked down to like that because dad is the head of the household and has the right to mistreat and demean anyone he wants because God said so?

    I'm sorry but I will not send that message to my daughters. I will, at least, defend myself.

    Reading these posts, I'm beginning to realize why I've always felt God does not love me. I'm female and, obviously, worthless. Just a doormat to be walked on and there's something wrong with me if I won't roll over and take it.

    Take care. I think I'll just drage my worthless self out of here and go let someone kick me.
     

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