Sunday-worship

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Aug 21, 2004.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I propose: That Sunday and Sunday-worship is Christianity infiltrated by heathenism and idolatry. That Jesus did not rise from the dead on the First Day of the week, but "In the end of the Sabbath". This King James Version of the text (Mt28:1) is supported by AT Robertson and other scholars of count.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    #1. The first day of the week begins on Saturday evening because God's timeline (which He had His people use) is from "evening to evening".

    #2. "As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" is clearly a reference to the time ON the first day when dawn is about to occur.

    #3. The resurrection of Christ (or the day of it) does not constitute "a kind of commandment" regarding weekly worship services.

    #4. There is nothing "in a 7 day cycle" about the resurrection of Christ. Rather the ONLY reason for worship on a 7 day cycle is belief in the LITERAL creation act of God and the literal creation week. Evolutionists should have no interest in it at all.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Point 1, I agree.
    Point 2, epi-phohs-k-ousehi, translated "dawn", is wrong! See AT R. referred to. Its true meaning is found in Luke where it indicates the time of day that Joseph had finished with burying Jesus: "afternoon towards" the to follow day - the Sabbath. In the case of Mt28:1 the to follow day - accusative - was the First Day of the week -Sunday. You affirmed under your first point the day starts with the evening - so it had been the afternoon, "in-the-very-being-of-light" - epiphohskousehi, when the resurrection took place.
    Point next: The sabbath - OT - was eschatological sign of Christ and had everything to do with the weekly cycle of creation-time. Hb.4:4, God thus concerning the Seventh day spoke" - cf. Ex24:8 "concerning these words" or Divine Law that is!
     
  5. BobRyan

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    The only basis for the weekly cycle is a "real" belief in the REAL act of God in creation week. There is no other basis for it.

    There was NO promise of a messiah given to Adam on the 7th day since Adam had not fallen and "redemption from sin" is not a theme in God's creation week.

    The text of Luke is clear that the women are coming to the tomb early in the morning.

    Mark 16:
    1 "When the Sabbath was OVER"
    2 "Very early on the first day of the week they came to the tomb"

    9 "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week".

    Luke
    23:56 And they rested on the Sabbath "according to the Commandment"

    24:1 "On the first day of the week AT early dawn"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Mercury

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    Unless one reads Deuteronomy 5:12-15 where another basis is given for it:

    Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

    So another basis for keeping the seventh day holy (which implements a weekly cycle) is the exodus. Or, is there an alternate interpretation of the word "therefore"?
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Duet 5 is a summary given by Moses 40 years AFTER God spoke the 10 commandments (Exodus 20) from Mt. Sinai.

    Moses ADDS to the "reasons" for obedience - the local fact that for THESE people - God delivered them from Egypt. But God did not "deliver them in 6 days and rest the 7th day". There is NO 7 day deliverance cycle in Egypt showing a 7th day of rest after 6 days of working for deliverance.

    Further - in Gen 2 the 7th day "was sanctified" and made holy "for mankind" as Christ said in Mark 2.

    Again - the REAL creation week is the ONLY basis for the 7 day cycle.

    The point remains.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Mercury

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    What, so God allowed Moses to record something that isn't true? I believe Deuteronomy 5 is accurate and inspired Scripture. After listing the commandments without a single reference to creation, this summary statement is given:

    These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

    I believe it. So, the differences between this passage and Exodus 20 may be due to Moses adding some inspired commentary along with what God spoke to the assembly and etched in stone. Probably, both the tying to creation in Exodus (Ex. 20:11) and the tying to the exodus in Deuteronomy (Deut. 5:15) were commentary, since the rest of the Sabbath command reads virtually the same in both accounts.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    It does not take a genius to read the 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 spoken directly by God from Sinai and contrast that to the summary Moses gives in Deut 5 - "noticing" that Moses is adding the incentive for obedience as the LOCAL fact of delieverance from Egypt.

    This does not change the GLOBAL fact of the Creator's act in Gen 1-2:3 nor the Creator's Words in Exodus 20:8-11. It is the Words of Exodus 20 that are "Etched in Stone".

    Moses does not come out with a NEW tablet in Duet -- 40 years later. Moses is not REPLACING Exodus with Deuteronomy. Moses relies on the fact that his readers have access BOTH to the 7 day cycle REASON for Creation week AND to the ADDED incentive for Israel in the LOCAL event of deliverance from Egypt.

    But the point remains - there are NO 7 day CYCLES in Egypt related to deliverance. REASON for the 7 days GIVEN by God is ONLY the 7 days of creation week.

    Moses is not recorded as the "author" in Exodus 20 - God Himself is speaking.

    Moses is not "editing the stone tablets" 40 years later in Deut.

    The point remains.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Dear Bob,
    Quote,
    The only basis for the weekly cycle is a "real" belief in the REAL act of God in creation week.
    So far agreed.
    Quote Continued,
    There is no other basis for it.
    Disagreed.
    Jesus Christ is the only basis for God's Day of God's Rest from God's own works - Hb.4:10
    QC:
    There was NO promise of a messiah given to Adam on the 7th day since Adam had not fallen and "redemption from sin" is not a theme in God's creation week.
    I totally disagree. Every work of God of the seventh day is a work possible for God only, and for God only through and in Jesus Christ. God's Rest is the greatest of God's works - Eph.1:19. I believe as Flavel did that Adam fell "before the fall of night". Don't ask me to explain it, I simply believe man lived by grace from the start -which implies man BECAME a sinner from his very first day. Genesis has NO history of sinless man except for his creation per se; in fact Genesis 2-3 is the history of man's fall per se.
    QC
    The text of Luke is clear that the women are coming to the tomb early in the morning.
    Alright, so what? It wasn't the time of the Resurrection.
    QC:
    Mark 16: 1 "When the Sabbath was OVER"
    Again, so what? Then the women went to buy some stuff; again, it wasn't the time of the Resurrection.
    QC:
    2 "Very early on the first day of the week they came to the tomb"
    Yes, and found it empty the first time - the Resurrection something of the past.
    QC:
    9 "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week".
    That's a lie! You show me that in the 'text'! The text simply but majestically confirms, "RISEN, He (Jesus) on the First Day of the week APPEARED ..." - NOT 'had risen' - finite nominative, but Participle.
    QC:
    Luke 23:56 And they rested on the Sabbath "according to the Commandment"
    That was on Friday after sunset when the Sabbath had started, long before the Resurrection.
    QC:
    24:1 "On the first day of the week AT early dawn"
    the women approached the grave - it wasn't the time of the Resurrection.
    Gerhard
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    ear Bob,
    Sorry, I meant "Indicative", "Nominative"!
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Dear Bob,
    Sorry again, I meant "Indicative", NOT "Nominative"!
    Gerhard
     
  13. Mercury

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    The problem is that if that is true, Moses doesn't merely add, but he also substracts the previous justification for the commandment. I'd be interested in your interpretation of the phrase "and He added no more" in Deuteronomy 5:22.
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    You are sidestepping the issue brought forward by myself.
    If God had spoken the Law at Sinai, how much more REAL is God's Law when it is THE WORD of God Himself - Jesus Christ!
    Gerhard
     
  15. Ben W

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    Hello Gerhard, I had a look at the Bible Students website that you have listed on your profile, it looks as though you have some interesting articles there. Is Bible Students a part of a Denomination or a Non Denominational group?

    Seeing that they appear to be of the opinion that the Feasts are no longer required for today which I agree with, I was wondering if you are with the Seventh Day Adventist or Seventh Day Baptist Churches?
     
  16. Alcott

    Alcott
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    Romans 14:5-6 -- One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

    Colossians 2:16-17 -- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that mankind WAS created by God -- sinless, perfect and IN harmony with his Maker, worshipping God in perfect harmony?

    Or do you believe that God "Created man sinful"?

    Do you believe Adam really FELL into sin??

    I agree that the 2nd person of the Godhead was at Creation week - creating ALL things - but I do not agree that this had something to do with His death or that the creation act of God the Son had anything to do with sin, or His suffering. His 7th day of rest pointed BACK to His act of creation. It is a memorial of Creation WEEK according to God and the language He chose in Exodus 20:8-11.

    How could it be any other way?

    This "alone" establishes the "7 day element" to the day - otherwise we have no reason for it.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Must fill in my 'Profile' still.
    No, I am NOT SDA, but 'Reformed' - a Calvinist, in Afrikaans, 'Gereformeerd' - in faith like the Dutch Churches. I believe the "Drie Formuliere", the Belgic, Heidelberg and Dort Confessions, with the exception of SUNDAY-worship, which although never so mentioned is implied thoroughly in the 'Confessions'.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Romans 14 provides a "defense" of the one who "observes ALL the Holy Days" in the Lev 23 liturgical calendar as WELL as the defense of the one who "observes ONE above another".

    That is hardly a case for finding a way to do away with the 4th commandment.

    Colossians 2 is speaking of the "shadow" ceremonial Sabbaths given as predictive laws pointing TOWARD the work of Christ in the future as high priest and atoning sacrifice.

    By contrast - God's 4th commandment was given as a prescriptive law pointing BACK as a MEMORIAL of the Creator's Creative act. (Hence the 7 day cycle instead of yearly cycle).

    In any case - the memorial aspect is explicit in the language of the commandment in Ex 20:8-11 as "spoken by God".

    A day that Christ said "Was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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