Surging Toward Disaster in Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    With Senator Lugar no longer supporting President Bush's policy in Iraq and the continuing civil war in Iraq I think that by the time 2008 rolls around there will very little support left for President Bush on this subject - even among his most loyal disciples.


    Surging Toward Disaster in Iraq

    As the U.S. takes sides in Iraq's splintering civil war, a top Republican warns Bush's policy will fail.
    By Juan Cole

    June 28, 2007 | Earlier this week Sen. Richard Lugar, the senior Republican from Indiana, dismissed the U.S. "surge" in Iraq as unlikely to succeed. He condemned any illusions about staying the course. "We have overestimated what the military can achieve, we have set goals that are unrealistic, and we have inadequately factored in the broader regional consequences of our actions," Lugar said from the Senate floor.

    His alarm has been illustrated by the difficulties the U.S. and Iraqi militaries faced in the recent offensive operation dubbed "Operation Arrowhead Ripper," aimed at subduing Baquba (pop. 300,000), the restive capital of Diyala province, located 31 miles northeast of Baghdad. American generals admitted that 80 percent of the guerrilla leadership there had slipped away, and that the Iraqi army lacked the equipment and training to hold areas taken in difficult hand-to-hand fighting. The U.S. military compounded its public-relations problem by implausibly branding virtually everyone it fought or killed in the Sunni-majority city as "al-Qaida." ...

    Only by adopting a more realistic policy in Iraq immediately, Lugar argues, can the Bush administration potentially avoid an American rout two years down the road. Games of Whack-a-Mole like those being played in Diyala province at present are highly unlikely to deliver a decisive victory to the U.S. military or to its Iraqi allies. Bush may see himself as making a noble last stand, but Lugar looks at the president and sees Custer at Little Bighorn. And the senior senator's defection from the White House camp over the war signals a turning point in Republican support for the beleaguered president.

    - entire article at www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/06/28/iraq_surge/
     
    #1 KenH, Jun 29, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2007
  2. carpro

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    Frederick Kagan, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute whose report "Choosing Victory: A Plan for Success in Iraq" served as the basis of the new counterinsurgency strategy, gave a cautiously positive evaluation of the surge in his testimony before Lantos' committee.

    "It is now beyond question that the Bush administration pursued a flawed approach to the war in Iraq from 2003 to 2007," Kagan said. But "to say that the current plan has failed is simply incorrect....Indications on the military side strongly suggest that success -- in the form of dramatically reduced violence by the end of this year -- is quite likely."

    Kagan said it would be a "very grave error indeed to rush now to abandon the first strategy that offers some real prospect for success."

    Kagan added that though President Bush announced his new strategy in January of this year, and reinforcement brigades began arriving in Iraq over the winter and spring, the operations that are designed to clear out insurgent activity in Baghdad have not yet begun in earnest.

    Kagan testified that "a successful clear-and-hold operation...will probably begin in late July or early August within Baghdad itself." He said that operation will be the one to bring lasting security to Iraq's capital -- creating "the space for political progress that we all desire."
     
  3. KenH

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    Fred Kagan is a neocon and AEI is the leading neocon think tank.

    Then again, it was the neocons who agitated to get Bush's Folly in Iraq started in the first place so maybe they ought to be the ones to have to try to figure out how to get these United States out of the mess they created. But since they bungled the operation from the get go there is no reason to expect that they have any idea how to get out of Bush's Folly in Iraq.
     
  4. KenH

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    And if that success doesn't materialize, then Kagan and his ilk will be saying it will be Spring 2008, then Summer 2008, then Autumn 2008, etc., etc., etc.

    It was Kagan's neocon buddies' strategy in Iraq that failed from 2003 until now. Why should we believe the neocons' new strategy will work?
     
  5. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    And DOR's need failure in Iraq. This constant drum beatin you libs are doing continues to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Good Job!:thumbs:
     
  6. carpro

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    So what?

    Can you refute his points?
     
  7. KenH

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    Your question makes no sense. How can one refute his points today when he says the results won't be known for months down the road?

    But we all know that the neocons' strategy in Iraq has been a failure from March 2003 to date(Kagan even admitted this) so why should we trust the neocons' latest strategy?
     
  8. carpro

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    Meaning you can't refute his points concerning the surge.
     
  9. KenH

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    Meaning that you can't prove Kagan's points concerning the surge.
     
  10. carpro

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    Kagan added that though President Bush announced his new strategy in January of this year, and reinforcement brigades began arriving in Iraq over the winter and spring, the operations that are designed to clear out insurgent activity in Baghdad have not yet begun in earnest.



    Kagan's statement is a pure statement of fact. The truth is that anti war types do not want successful operations in Iraq.

    The reason?

    Political advantage. It's not about the war anymore. Just politics and validation. Since they predicted and wanted failure, they cannot allow the surge to succeed. Therefore, the best and surest way to succeed is not let it get started.
     
  11. KenH

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    But the surge has started, carpro. And neither you nor Kagan can guarantee that it will be successful.

    Let's have this conversation on September 30, 2007, and see who was right.
     
  12. carpro

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    True.

    Meanwhile you continue to post only bad news and predict failure. I believe you want it to fail.

    From military.com:

    "With both the American and Iraqi body counts climbing, and perhaps with an eye on the political climate in both Washington and Baghdad, the American military is looking for the necessary time to make the strategy work. “We are still positioning forces,” said Brigadier General Kevin Bergner today (the new MNFI spokesman who replaced MajGen William Caldwell). “The last brigade is only now arriving, and it takes 30-60 days after arrival for them to be comfortable with their Iraqi Army counterparts, as well as for the locals to accept them. We have a collective sense that the trends are better, and that the joint security stations and combat OP’s are effective.”
     
  13. carpro

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    http://www.nypost.com/seven/0621200...ng_on_offense_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm


    WINNING ON OFFENSE
    REAL PLAN TO DEFEAT IRAQ FOES


    By RALPH PETERS

    EXCERPT

    The second, enduring question is whether the Iraqis will finally knock off their squabbling and shoulder their share of the burden. Petraeus is giving us a lesson in skillful generalship, employing U.S. troops where he must, Iraqis where he can. But, in the end, we can't win this unless the Iraqis win it for themselves. Pious statements about "brave Iraqis" only get us so far: We're still only buying time - and no one can pretend that time isn't running out.

    Which brings us to the home front, where the war just might be lost, no matter what progress we make on the ground.

    Political hucksterism and poll-pandering on Capitol Hill amount to stabbing our troops in the back. Period. The insistence that success or failure will be determined beyond doubt by September is pure political quackery.

     
  14. KenH

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    Even if it is, it is also political reality.
     
  15. KenH

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    Then your belief is wrong.
     

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