Swiss Cheese Faith/Through The Roof

I read your thread and was curious, but am unable to listen to anything online, open files, or read pages with heavy graphics.
If you have it in a readable format link me up! It also may be possible for you to simply go to the code and copy it out for those of us whose computers were inherited from Noah.
Gina

 

SMM, I finally picked up your voice, on the links. Now, why don't you add a picture, under your name, so we can see the face that goes with the voice?

MEE

 

Thanks SMM! Your voice matches your face. Now everyone will have to listen to your voice to see what I'm talking about.

MEE

 

Hey there mad man... listening to your MP3's now. However, I saw the picture.... just wanted you to know that Coke called and they want the bottoms of their bottle's back - those glasses are something else, man. Just kidding there man.

Anyway... the swiss cheese analogy was good. It fits with the analogy of a "body" in which every joint supplies it's help. However, one element that is missing. Remember Jesus said 'be it unto you according to your faith'.

Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

There is an element that you must incorporate. God is a perfect gentleman. He will bless you as far as you are willing to recieve! He will not force a blessing on you if you refuse it. Remember that salvation is a gift that we recieve by faith. If one's faith is insufficient to recieve the gift, one rejects the gift. God doesn't force people to recieve salvation, otherwise there would be no need to "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel". He also doesn't force people to recieve prosperity (healing, blessing, etc). Both are appropriated by faith - both are freely given - both are unforced.

Why is that important? Because many people, although in need of healing, are comfortable with the status quo. I have seen many examples of people praying for healing in an area and their prayers were never effectual (and those prayers of those standing the gap for them) until that person was ready and truely willing inside themselves.

For example - take someone who is addicted to ciggarettes. They are never going to get freed from their addiction no matter how much others pray for them until they actually want to stop in their heart of hearts.

Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Remember also what Jesus said -

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I noticed you talked about the swiss cheese analogy, gave them the 'stand together in faith' bit... then at the end said you weren't "into praying" after speaking, but that you would be happy to go one by one to pray with people.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The 'hearing' is in the continuous present sense. That means it literally says 'faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing...'. The very best time for people to recieve healing, blessing, whatever is when #1, there are more than 2 or 3 gathered in His name... and #2 just after they have heard from the Word of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Feed them the word and let them be built up in their faith... then let them act on their faith in agreement together with one another.

Notice the importance of 'being in agreement':

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Act 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)


So one must hear God's word for faith to come... they must believe that His will for them is this good thing (healing, blessing, etc) and they must be in agreement or one accord (if the thing they praying for is a corporate request). Also remember that faith without corresponding action is dead faith.

 

mel·an·chol·y (mln-kl) n.
Sadness or depression of the spirits; gloom
Affected with or marked by depression of the spirits; sad.

I don't think that christians are supposed to be 'melancholy'. We are supposed to have the corner market in joy and peace. In fact, it is only the Blessing of God that gives us Joy without sorrow - we can't say this of any worldly items.

Pro 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for [this] day [is] holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.

Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

Jhn 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Jhn 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Keep in mind that Jesus says that if we have the faith of a Mustard Seed, we can move mountains.

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

To understand this text is critical to faith. You are taking the approach that Word of Faith teachers proclaim you have either 0 faith or 100% faith. That isn't what Jesus teaches. You see the mustard seed is the tiniest of seeds. It is extrememly small. Jesus is saying that if you have even the smallest ammount of faith you can do great things in the kingdom of God. So it's not that one must have 100% faith as you suggest... but rather 'do you have zero faith'. If you have greater than zero, than you have 'great faith' in the kingdom of God. Moreover, faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by speaking. Often, we can let the devil rob us of our faith by the convincing ourselves otherwise. For example, if God wants you to recieve healing, and you convince yourself that you are in your sickly state because God put you there... or becuase he is trying to teach you some lesson... and you say "God has done this to me" or 'I am just doomed to be sick all my life' then you are basically expressing your faith by your actions.

Look at James -

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

I have never heard WoF teachers say you have to have 100% faith. Every one I know says you have to have greater than zero faith - that even the smallest ammount of faith is powerful in the kingdom of God. However, we can be robbed of our crumbs of faith by talking ourselves out of it... or by demonstrating what we believe (contrary to our faith) by our actions or words.

Keep in mind that Faith and fear are very similar principles. Fear is the enemy's counterfit to faith. What is fear except for overwhelming beleif in impending doom. Fear is faith being demonstrated by a physical response. If you are afraid of something, you have great faith in that something's ability to effect you.

2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

We do not walk by the flesh... how do we walk?

2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Keep in mind that you do not have to be continuously positive about your speeach, but rather optimistic, and you can't blame God. Look at Job. He spoke of his affliction, but never cursed God for his affliction. We know ... by fatih... that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. We see consistent examples of God trying to get blessing to his people. James tells us directly that affliction is not caused by God. I think one of the primary ways the devil robs us of our faith is by convincing us that it is God's will for us to suffer - thereby removing incentive for faith to work or operate. Part of that is because they don't believe it is God's will that they be healed because they have been lied to into believing that it was God's will for them to suffer. Therefore, they are at a zero faith level for healing. We see this same concept demonstrated in the healing of a man who was born blind -

Jhn 9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
Jhn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

We might as well say 'is he still suffering because he has no faith, or because his parents had no faith'.

Jesus answers:
Jhn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

It may be a revelation to some... but the 'works of God' that are being manifested are not that he remains blind... but that he recieves healing!! Notice how Jesus makes mud and then tells him to go wash in a specific pool. Why? Because the man had not demonstrated his faith in any way. Jesus needed to have him preform an action to demontrate his faith! Faith without corresponding action is dead - James 2. Just as dead is faith combined with contradictory action. Some 'name it claim it' people take this too far and say that - for example if you are sick and you pray for healing and then say you are still sick you won't get your healing. I say that's a little overboard. I would say "by the stripes of Jesus I have been (notice that's past tense) healed and soon I will be rid of these symptoms". I know it's God's will to heal me... I know it's coming my way... I just have to be ready for it when it comes - and I need to avoid blaming God for afflicting me, as well as believing that it is God's intention to keep me continuously in that state.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

Affliction is always temporary and your deliverance will come if you accept it by faith.

I am reminded of a joke -

A man falls overboard in the ocean. He prays that he will be rescued by a cruise ship where his trip back to land will be a luxourious ride. Three small fishing boats come by and offer to rescue him... but he tells each of them them "By Faith I am waiting for God to bring me a cruise ship". Eventually the man drowns. He goes to heaven and asks God - "God why didn't you answer my prayer - my faith was unwaivering?" God says 'did you see the 3 ships I sent you?' The man was so locked into the way that he wanted things to happen (to glorify himself and his flesh) that he let the real work of God pass him by.

That is one of the biggest misconceptions about the WoF/prosperity doctrine that is out there. One of the main reasons you have that misconception is because of several passionate preachers in the WoF realm that go overboard on the message... but part of it has to deal with the personal greed and lust of the listeners.

You see, many in the church take the stance that in order to avoid a particular sin, they must completely do away with an entire doctrine or section of the Word. For example, those with problems with sexual sin - those who have expeience that may take such a stance against it that the whole topic of sex is avoided and shunned. That is a completely wrong approach as sex is part of life, and is meant to be enjoyed within the right context (the marriage relationship). I have seen many churches that completely ignore that topic... other than to say it's all bad don't talk about it... don't think about it etc. What do people do? They find themselves married to a person who thinks sex is bad and have an unfulfilling marriage... or they then go to the world or MTV for example to learn about sex. The church should be the place where we learn about these things.

In the same way, prosperity has been shunned or ignored by the church. It's not the the Bible doesn't teach on it... or that there isn't a godly attitude towards it... but the potential for abuse is so high that so many churches avoid it or preach against it. That is neither a balanced or biblical approach. It' part of life, and the word has a lot of good things as well as warnings to say about it... they should all be taught and it should not be dismissed or shyed away from.

If you don't have cars, money, houses, etc that is not a result of not having enough faith. It's a result of your focus. If you seek to exhalt self, and your motive for increase is to consume it upon your own lusts then you are not a steward to whom God can intrust increase. However, once you get that focus on God and his kingdom and what you can do for God as his steward, God says he will open up the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing there is not room enough to contain - remember what God said about blessing? That His blessing makes you rich and adds no sorrow to it. Why? Because you are an instrament God can use to advance his kingdom on the earth... not an empty black hole for kingdom resources.

The same is true where our faith is concerned as it pertains to earthly things such as healing (healing is part of the prosperity doctrine - prosperity is simply freedom from lack in all areas). If you are looking for healing... one of the best things you can go is go pray for someone else who is experiencing the same thing to get healed. If you are looking for emotional support, go be there for someone else. As we take our focus off ourselves and put it on God - the author and finisher of our faith - we become distribution centers for his blessing to flow through us. As we take our focus off self and onto others we remove the blockage of 'consume it upon our own lusts' as it says in James 4:3 -

Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.

I think part of that is because you have the wrong definition of what it means to be 'meek'. Jesus demonstrated meekness, but can you think of any time when he cowered in fear and self loathing? Can you think of any 'melancholy' moments of self interested depression in His life or ministry? To be meek does not mean to be isolated, introverted, shy, timid, or quiet (aka a wimp, coward, pushover). It means to orient the importantance of God above importance for self. It means to esteem the kingdom of God above your own interests. It means to be a servent of God rather than a servent of self. To realize that you are nothing outside of Christ, and yet greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. While you can do nothing on your own you can do ALL THINGS though CHRIST!

Any time you are "in it for self" you have the potential to run into 'spiritual one-up-man-ship' as the Pharasees did... remember Jesus called them a brood of vipers! He didn't act mild or pious toward them... he called them out and struck down their empty religous doctrines. In contrast, when you are working for someone else for someone else's interests you obey. For example - take a mild mannered person.. throw them in the army and then tell them to shoot an enemy. They remain meek and humble as they obey the order. They do what their superior tells them in complience and the interest of the country is served. In the same way, we are to humbly and meekly advance the kingdom of God. Our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. We don't accomplish our task by being 'melancholy' ... what would a general do if he told his soldier to go cover the flank and the the soldier huffed and puffed and whined about the assignment? How about if the solider - when faced with the enemy - put down his weapon and let the enemy waltz all over him and penetrate into the camp? Contrast that now with the soldier who stays and fights against insurmountable odds so that his troops can make it out safely. There is a huge difference between debasing self for one's own sake... or for the sake of the Gospel. Jesus doesn't tell us to roll over and play dead for the sake of being a good christian! For example, when we are told to 'turn the other cheek' we are told to do so for His Name's sake. "If they persecute you for my name's sake, turn the other cheek". It doen't say "whenever you get the chance, act lowly and debase yourself". It says if we are persecuted for preaching the gospel.

I used to subscribe to this theory of being lowly and poverished to be godly... but that's not who we are in christ. That is what we are in and of ourselves. We have been given power and authority because we are now heirs. It is not that we in any way deserve it - but we have been given as joint heirs together with and in Christ.

Think about the difference between the highest servent in a household and how that servent... even the governor of the house... compares to the heir. The highest servent in the house earns their position through hard work... dedication... etc. The heir has to do NOTHING to inherit the household, but gets it because of WHO they are...not what they have done. You cannot act humble enough... debase yourself enough... or endure enough pain and hardship in order to earn that gift.

I am not really sure I understand what you mean here -- you were on the recieving end of spiritual one-up-manship? Can you explain your situation?

 

Sorry about that Mad Man... I used the Dictionary.com definition for melancholy. I apologize if I have offended you... I simply don't know what you are talking about when you say 'melancholy'.

Please forgive me if I have disparaged your group or body of 'Melancholy believers'. I have truly never heard of such a denomination before. I would venture to say that extreme Melancholy cults are just as dangerous as extreme Word of Faith cults. Unfortunately, you seem to have ignored my entire post on the basis of an ad-hominem response, thereby leaving out any meaningful discussion regarding either.

As to preaching all prosperity, all joy, and all positiveness - this only demonstrates that you do not understand the word of faith doctrine.

Jam 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jam 1:3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 1:4 describes prosperity - which is defined as 'freedom from lack' or 'wholeness' - perfect and entire... wanting nothing. James 1:1-4 describes our attitude very well. We know that trials and temptations will come but we are not to give into them... and we should count it joy for our faith will be strengthened when we have come through to the end of them.

Again... I don't know much about a Melancholy other than the dictionary definition (which you seem to have rejected) - but it would seem that someone who was melancholy would be someone wallowing in self absorbed pity - or perhaps someone who does not count it joy to come through diverse temptations... but one who counts it joy to experience and remain bound in diverse temptations and struggles.

I invite your thoughtful response.

I have shown you in this thread where the concepts of prosperity, joy, and faith are supported by scripture - as well as the concept of demonstrating one's faith by our actions (keeping in mind fully that it is not by works but only by one's faith). Your statement seems to indicate that ANY occurrence of prosperity and joy is out of balance with the Word and to be avoided - where melancholy, sadness, depression is glorified. However, I have shown you in this thread how that is indeed not true. I gave the dictionary definition of melancholy and noted that I do not think this is the attitude of life we are scripturally intended to have.

The onus is on you to demonstrate otherwise.

 

Then I was absolutely correct -

You are a self-loathing pity-party and there is no place for your attitude in the body of Christ. You are as the pharisees who covered themselves in sackcloth and ash... you are the antithesis of a christian.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Dictionary.com definition of Melancholy:

Sadness or depression of the spirits; gloom
Affected with or marked by depression of the spirits; sad.
Tending to promote sadness or gloom:

Merriam-Webster's definition of melancholy:

an abnormal state attributed to an excess of black bile and characterized by irascibility or depression
depression of spirits : DEJECTION


So what you are really saying and doing here is that you are sad and depressed and you are trying to preach 'standing in the gap' for others.... basically what you are saying is that you are a self-serving, self-pitying, self-absorbed loser who would like as many people as possible to come around you ... tell you everything is going to be ok... pat you on the back... hold YOU up in prayer because you're so Melancholy and depressed and can't seem to handle your own emotions.

What does Jesus say? He says to love other's as we love ourselves. If we are supposed to be 'melancholy' that would read that we are to dispise others as we dispise ourselves. We are to ignore, buffet, mistreat, and distain others as we do ourselves. No, sir... the Bible paints a very different picture of the way we are to treat others... and thereby the way in which we are to treat and think of ourselves.

How very selfish of you to use a pulpit to attempt to elicit emotional support from others for your own personal self-interest. How very self-centered and egregious! How is that any better than a pastor who preaches on tithing so they can steal money from the offering plate? Shame on you, sir, shame on you!