Sympathy for the Arminian, Part 3

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Nov 20, 2013.

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  1. Protestant

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    It isn’t easy being a Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian Arminian.

    Holding fast to a belief system despite the extraordinary evidence to the contrary is exhausting, spiritually and mentally.

    To deny the abundant evidence which is soundly presented day and night by consistent, scriptural Christians who embrace the eternal truths of saving grace as understood and taught by Jesus and all the Gospel authors requires much circular, illogical and conjectural reasoning.

    Some Arminians proudly follow the doctrines of Pelagius and Socinius which deny the imputation of original sin, man’s willing slavery to sin and Satan, as well as the federal headship of Adam, to name but a few.

    Other Arminians vehemently deny the impotency of man to do that which pleases God to the saving of his soul.

    Still others tout the belief that God ‘helps’ all men up to a point, leaving the final outcome of salvation to the individual and good or bad use of his ‘free will.’

    There is even an Arminian on this board who would have us believe that God is so sovereign that to prove His sovereignty He has willingly denied Himself, relinquishing His sovereignty to sinful man.

    Let’s not forget the Arminian who boasts God has the right to demand double payment for sins if He wishes….the first insufficient payment from Christ, the second endless payment from the unbelieving in eternal torment.

    Not a few Arminians deny the eternal security of the believer despite Christ’s promise and assurance that He loses none.

    And then there is the Arminian who shamelessly professes, “your god is my Devil.”

    Despite their cries otherwise, Arminians have much in common with the Roman Catholic Church’s understanding of salvation.

    Both deny Absolute Predestination, eagerly giving man the ultimate glory in his salvation.

    This would explain how such evangelical ‘luminaries’ as Billy Graham can embrace the Pope and His Church proclaiming them fellow Christians who allegedly serve the same God.

    Even on this board there is an active Baptist Arminian member who is a disciple of Peter Kreeft, a Catholic Apologist whose mission is to ‘explain away’ the heresies and blasphemies of his false Church’s teachings.

    Below are prime examples of the Catholic Magisterium’s authoritative teaching with which Arminians agree:

    ON JUSTIFICATION (CANONS OF TRENT)

    [DENIAL OF IRRISISTIBLE GRACE] CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema. [i.e. ‘May he be cursed by God.’]

    [DENIAL OF MAN’S TOTAL INABILITY, A SLAVE TO SIN] CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

    [DENIAL OF THE CERTAINLY OF PERSERVERANCE] CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

    [DENIAL OF ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION, THE UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION OF GRACE] CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
    CHAPTER III.
    Who are justified through Christ.

    [DENIAL OF PARTICULAR REDEMPTION] But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. [i.e. ‘born again’ through water baptism.]

    So where, I ask, is all this endless debate headed?

    For what is its purpose?

    “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19)
     
  2. InTheLight

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    You do have issues, you know that...
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    There are "issues" that are negative and there are some that are positive. All that I can see are positive "issues" and well stated.
     
  4. Winman

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    Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, Woo Hoo!

    Oh sorry, the title of this thread got me carried away.

    And I thought it was my job that made me so tired. Silly me.

    Day and night? I need to sleep at night, again, I get tired from holding fast to a belief system despite the extraordinary evidence to the contrary. You are right, it is exhausting.

    Oooh a new name! Now I am a Socinian. So-sa-nee-ahn, I like it! Much easier to say than Pa-lay-gee-ahn.

    I know, I hate that too.

    Well, I certainly hope I make good use of my free will.

    Say it ain't so, Joe!

    Double payment? That's not fair!

    Not a few, or not a lot?

    Woo Hoo! Woo Hoo!, Oops, sorry, that song popped into my head again.

    Oooohh otherwise! Oooohh otherwise! Boo Hoo!

    I deny absolute predestination, but I will give you this ultimate glory if you call within the next 5 minutes!

    I don't think men should be embracing each other either.

    I like Kraft Macaroni and Cheese.

    Below? Woo Hoo! Woo Hoo! Sorry, that song keeps coming back.

    I have seen Grace and she is pretty hot, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she was irresistible.

    They've got little blue pills for this inability now you know.

    Well, you can't lose if you don't play I always say.

    The uncondtional election of Grace? Again, she's OK, but I wouldn't vote for her, I've heard she's a Democrat.

    With no particular place to go... Oops, sorry, another song popped in my head.

    Cleveland?

    To watch the Browns lose again?

    But what's puzzling you, is the, nature of my game. Woo Hoo!
     
    #4 Winman, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  5. Iconoclast

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    :thumbs::applause::thumbs: Ouch.....some might need some spiritual aloe vera to soothe the burning to a crisp......this is an accurate recap of the past few weeks of BB posts.......arminians trying to make bricks without straw:thumbs:
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Well, I dont expect anyone to be happy about being called a Heretic!?! How would you like it....its insulting to your belief system, wouldn't you agree?

    May I suggest something a bit different, maybe you should list some results of what that particular theology tends to encourage? See I live in an area void of Calvinistic churches .... at best its "church lite" where there is no doctrine taught. My area, my community is the Microcosm result & it aint purdy. By publicly revealing "END RESULTS" you just might get somebodies attention. However insulting ones Faith belief base isn't cool & doesn't cut it. All you did was managed to PO someone.
     
  7. InTheLight

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    No, it's just another rehash of Calvinists trying to define what they think other believe and then attacking it. This happens on both sides of the aisle--non-Cals are guilty of this as well. However, it seems to me that Calvinists relish in it much more, all a part of that arrogance and sneering thing they've got going. And before you rebut that statement just re-read the OP to get the flavor again.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Your right! But just so you know ITL, my fathers family were all Calvinists & the kindest people it has ever been my privileged to have known. In my eyes, this... what you see is not Calvinism..... which I have experienced as warm, God Loving, & joyful. Brother, you would want the latter!

    Have patience, we will work thru this bump in the road.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Great post, but you will be labeled either a "hater", or else just another spiritually proud and scripturally ignorant like the rest of us here!!
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    I am surprised you would support a post that its only intent is to inflame. That is not usually like you. You usually display a higher level of maturity.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    More from Martyn Lloyd-Jones from "STUDIES IN THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT. Chapter 29---Love your Enemies


    Our Lord, again contrasting the perverted teaching of the Pharisees & the scribes with His own teaching, says, " But I say to you, Love your enemies." then as an illustration: "Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you. It is the definition of what the attitude of the Christian should be towards other people. ............ THE ONLY THING THAT ENABLES A MAN NOT TO HIT BACK, to turn the other cheek and to go the 2nd mile, to give his cloak as well as his coat when that is forcibly demanded, and to help others in desperate need, the vital thing is that a man should be dead to himself, dead to self-interest, dead to a concern about self. But our Lord goes very much further here. We are told we must positively love these people. We are even to love our enemies. It is not simply that we are not to strike back at them, but that we must be positive in our attitude toward them. Our Lord is at pains to have us see that our 'neighbor' must of necessity include our enemy.
     
  12. Winman

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    What???!!! Are you serious??? Nobody but nobody starts more threads for the sole purpose of instigating trouble than Yeshua1.

    Let any person say something controversial, and immediately Yeshua1 will start a new thread on that very subject. He enjoys nothing more than starting conflict. It is very difficult to believe you have never noticed this.

    And I'm still waiting for his apology from another thread where he falsely accused me of saying that man is able to come to God for salvation without God enabling him. I challenged him to show where I have EVER said that (I haven't) or apologize. So far I am still waiting for my apology.

    I'm not gonna hold my breath though.

    You really need to pay better attention, all Yeshua1 does is start threads designed to start trouble.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    wrong again itl.....everything protestant posted was posted here on the BB in these past two weeks.

    you can join the list of those who whine about "arrogance"....but protestants post were direct quotes:thumbs:

    Now it is shocking to see them listed so neatly ....I will grant that it is a bit much to take:thumbs:
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    Winman

    You did it here when you said man just needs a little bit of information, a little more knowledge....:thumbs:
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Earth, Wind & Fire


    Protestant listed quotes from posts offered within the last few days....if the shoe fits...wear it as they say.

    People insult the truth all the time.It is God's truth...I do not take these wrong statements about truth, and my brothers who hold to it personally...as a rule.....false witness...yes.....ignorant statements ....no.


    Protestant made a great list of exactly what that theology encouraged...I just agreed with his fine list.:type:

    He made no insult...he just posted a summary of what they say everyday.
    The posts....insult themselves:thumbs:
     
  16. Winman

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    I have ALWAYS said that if God did not reveal himself and his Son Jesus Christ through the word of God that no man could possibly believe in Jesus Christ.

    So, I believe in inability, but that inability is due to ignorance. No man can believe in someone he has never heard of. And that is EXACTLY what Paul teaches in Romans 10:14.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    My view is completely supported by scripture and I can show it.

    Now you show me where Paul ever says or even implies that a man must be supernaturally regenerated before he can believe. I challenge you to show that.

    The word of God itself is supernatural, so I do not deny the supernatural in salvation. What I do deny is that the scriptures say a man has to be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You cannot show it.

    Again, I challenge you to show where scripture says a man must be regenerated to believe.

    You are so sure of your system, prove it to me.
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    EWF and others offended by the OP.

    I see no offense in quoting what others have stated. Why do you? It's time for you all to man up and own up to the reality of the quotes, the grave error in them, the hatred in them, and realize that this comes from their camp toward cals unremittingly.

    I am reminded of George Whitefield who was attacked and maligned by the Wesley's but answered them back kindly. That said, I see the same things in and from today's arminians, non-cals, and anti-cals day in and day out on BB. I also hear about the infighting among them in local churches around here so it is par for the course.

    I must admit, though only Reformed the last several years I've seen none of this from any Reformed brethren in real time, nor have I witnessed the ad nauseum accusations (which is in all actuality sowing constant discord) of immature name calling, broad-brushing, malignant behavior and labeling which is practiced by the anti-cals on here daily and is unchecked.
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    You are correct, he offered no insult but was met with many insults in return.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Ignorance is not inability! Ignorance is simply absence of information. Inability in regard to information would be the incapability of understanding information or receiving information if confronted with it.

    Moreover, the phrase "he that hath an ear to hear" is rendered absurd by your definition of inability as all normal born humans have phsyical ears to hear but this is referring to ABILITY given by God to understand truth:

    9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given
    .


    Inability is incapabiity of understanding information given to them. Inability requires God giving them something in addition to information called "understanding."

    So inability is not lack of information or knowledge but incapability of understand information received.

    Christ's words in Matthew 13:9-11 prove that natural man does not have the capability to know God in salvation even when the information is presented to them OR ELSE God would not have to "give" understanding in addition to information to them.
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Nov 21, 2013
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  20. Iconoclast

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    preacher4truth

    They really cannot take when you let them read what they posted.They see how foul and absurd the posts are...devoid of meaningful scripture...so they accuse Biblicist, or Protestant , or Old regular,...of an offense


    :type::confused::confused::confused:
     
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