T.D.Jakes

That has no place whatsoever in a Baptist book store. Where can we buy solid Christian materials anymore?

 

Blackbird...

Its sickening, isnt it. Society just keeps sinking lower and lower and lower.

When will it end? Who knows.

Maybe when a certain time of "tribulation" occures and a certain
LORD returns.

Come quickly, I say.

 

Jakes, Osteen, and others . . .

The problem with the television preachers is they are rooted in one thing: money, and they need to get as much of that green stuff as they can.

I wonder how these Men and their churches will hold up if the rapture comes even a day later than the start of the tribulation?

Mega church preachers are an interesting breed of preachers. They need to keep the money coming in, and they seem to be led to say whatever is needed or popular (at that time) to keep the cash spigot flowing.

I'll take a small, family church any day over the huge success driven mega churches. Of course, I want my pastor to preach hell-fire-and-brimstone and not back down when challenged by the politically correct side of society.

Great question, and great posts. :thumbs:

Pastor Paul :type:

 

So then, it just doesn't matter to you what the Bible says about it.

Yeah, I agree that it might be best for me to follow the Bible's teaching to have nothing to do with false teachers.

Are you a Christian? If so, then why do you disregard the Bible's instruction about false teachers?

 

The Blind Side is a great movie. I just can't figure out why it's considered a "Christian" movie to be sold in Christian bookstores.

 

LifeWay sells a lot of stuff that isn't overtly Christian. Just the nature of the business. They are not a church. They are a for-profit business. Most of their wares are Christian in nature, but appeal to a wide range of Christian expressions. From the varied responses to just about any topic we discuss on this board, I'm sure that LifeWay is an equal opportunity offender. Some will be offended that they sell any other Bible than the KJV, and so are not "Christian" in that regard. Others will be offended because they sell CCM CDs, and so violate that aspect of their sensibilities. Others still will go off because they feature "art" that we can hang on a wall, etc., etc., etc. We live in a big tent, and we're expected to love each other, even in our differences, but that seems to be the one command of Christ that we feel free to set aside at will.

The movie "The Blind Side" is very inspirational and has a Christian worldview. Sandra Bullock, the lead actress probably does not. She's an actress playing a role. In the mean time, she had to deal with a ton of Christian content to learn and play her role. That counts as a witness enc outer in my book, especially as she had to work hand-in-hand with the actual woman who was the source for the story. We should be rejoicing that God arranged to have this non-Christian woman in a place where she could be touched by the gospel.

Righteousdude2, you made a very blanket statement about "mega-church pastors." That is neither fair nor informed. SOME mega-church pastors are just as you suggest, money machines that are in the ministry for a lot of reasons besides following God at His Word, but equally so are the many who are humble servants of God who have build very healthy congregations that are growing BECAUSE they serve the Lord faithfully. It is not the size of the congregation that dictates the spiritual ability or direction of the pastor. I've seen a TON of small church pastors that are small church pastors because they are worthless. That is not a blanket attack on either small churches or small church pastors, just an observation that there are men in ministry at all levels that are not the men that should be there because they either cannot or will not follow God at His Word.

T.D. Jakes has a lot of problems, but at times I've heard him shine. Every once in a while he actually gets a few things right. Would I suggest following him? Nope, not on your life. But he has a huge following, and I pray that the pure light of the gospel will shine through even his mis-directed and theologically unsound teaching, because God can make that happen!

 

Worthless pastors? Then you make a disclaimer? Then there are a TON of them? That is a very critical error on your part, and a shameful, prideful, even arrogant gesture. Most churches in this nation are smaller congregations. Many of the pastors of such frequent this site. That is condemning most churches, and most pastors. Unreal.

 

As far as T.D. Jakes is concerned, I can not recommend his teachings. He does not believe that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one.

Satan will use as much truth as he possibly can to quietly sell his lie.

I go to Life Way to find Christian media. I do not have to buy anything that I do not agree with. I do find a better selection at Life Way than I do at any other Christian book store I have been in.

 

While I loved the movie so much that I bought it on DVD, I've seen it a dozen times and can't find anything in it that would constitute a "Christian worldview".

Judging by Touey's (sp?) appearance on Glenn Beck's show, I can't imagine that she would be able to accurately present the Gospel to her.

How did He do that?

 

Nope...

I've met them and so have you. I'm not condemning anyone (can we do that, I thought that was God's work!). I'm stating a point that the SIZE of a church does not make for the QUALITY or THEOLOGICAL SOUNDNESS of a pastor.

Every time I say something like this all the small church pastors get up in arms. Makes me wonder why? Almost comes off as an envy of large church pastors expressed as some form of theological subterfuge.

I'll tell the story of two particular small church pastors to illustrate what I've seen out there...

First was a man who "seemed" to be a blessing to the church. He was a decent preacher, a tad weak on core theology, but tried to preach the Bible faithfully (as he saw it). The problem came when he decided that he needed to make more money "because he was worth it". He engaged into three church-planting ventures that mostly gave him a larger paycheck from national missions. Along the way, he convinced the ill-informed people in that small church that they needed to overhaul their Constitution and By-Laws, and as a tenet therein, he wrote a line that later cost the church over $20,000 when he left (he wrote in a percentage of the church take as severance). The Pastor also coerced the church to sell the parsonage (that was paid for) and from that transaction he pocketed another $20,000 because he acted as the Realtor for the transaction and had the check wrote to him. Of course, that was on his way out the door... :BangHead:

In following this man's career, I noticed that he had closed the doors of two churches before he got to the one I've mentioned. I also watched him after he left and he went to another church and proceeded to use the funds from the first swindle to purchase a home in the community, then to suck dry the next church. Before he was done there, the church closed the doors. Of course, when they sold the property, guess who was the Realtor again...

From there, he left the Baptist denomination and went to a CoC congregation. He also set up a mission travel agency through that church and profited from booking mission tours until, yup, you guessed it, he closed down that church as well, again profiting from the sale of the building and parsonage. He held the business until he cashed that in as well.

Along the way, 2 or his daughters showed up pregnant, one at age 16, the other at age 17, neither married. His wife had a nervous breakdown, and ended up with agoraphobia and didn't leave the home for over 10 years. She finally did leave -- all the way to another state, without her husband. Imagine that... Last I heard, he was working for GM and drinking heavily. Hopefully, he's been laid off with the downsizing, but I fear that he'll just go out and prey (instead of pray!) on another small church that will be suckered into his slick-tongue style that carried absolutely no substance.

The second is even more personal. This man was called to replace me as pastor of our little church in Wisconsin. He seemed the ideal "too good to be true" pastor, formerly of a larger city church that he said, "just could not figure out how to grow" though according to him, he was "doing everything he could to make it happen..." Along with assuming the pulpit in our church, he also wished to be bi-vocational so that he could work on growing the church without taking all their money. The church was all over that, as I was. He ended up purchasing my parents motel business, as they were trying to retire. They made concession after concession, thinking all the while how great it would be for the local Baptist pastor to assume their business. Surely if he could run a church he would be a "good guy" and a wise business man... They ended up writing him a land contract when no bank would make the deal -- something that they regret to this day.

The first thing he did was to change the church over to KJVO. The second thing he did was to gut the fellowship hall in the basement and let his son move in to that area like it was an apartment. He managed to drive out most of the people we had found, introduced to the Lord, and baptized over our tenure there. His plan was to replace them with "folks like him..." He came to preach wearing motorcycle leathers, and started riding more than working with the church. The motel afforded him the chance to buy into all his dreams, so it was Harleys and black leather. He grew his hair long and let it get greasy. His sermons degenerated to, "Whatever... Just have fun. God likes fun." Within a year, the church was hardly recognizable, and it pained me to have to drive by it on my way to visit my parents.

Turns out that he also stopped making payments on the motel business and neglected to pay his taxes. When my parents tried to implement legal action against him for back payment and for property taxes he managed to fight them (his income level was 100 times theirs, since he wasn't making any payments!) for over 5 years, meanwhile, the back payments and taxes just kept accumulating. Finally, the state and county stepped in and ousted him from the business. It was then we discovered the degradation of the man. He was a hoarder like those you find on television programs these days. The entire home and half the motel rooms were filled to the roof with junk (true junk, not something usable). He had not fixed a single thing in all the years he was there, and in one case, the shower had leaked until the entire floor and wall were rotted out.

Guess where he moved when he was ousted? Yup, except in the sanctuary. Made jokes all over town that the baptistery made a nice hot tub, except he wasn't joking. He ended up closing down the church and he sold he building and grounds to a firm that turned the place into an apartment home, even though the constitution stipulated that the property be turned over to the association so a new church could be started if the existing one failed. His youngest son was gay, and ran around with pink hair. He totally destroyed any hope of a Baptist ministry in that community. What a horrendous wreck of a man -- a liar, a thief, and a scoundrel, and for all I can see, lost in his wickedness and sin.

These are but two examples that stem from one local association I was affiliated with about 15 years ago. I've not mentioned some of the other small church pastors that supported these men, and who had their own problems, nor the multitude that I met all over that region during my work with the state convention. Of the 143 churches in that convention, there were probably less than 20 sound pastors who were godly men leading churches to growth, both spiritual and numerically.

Since moving to another area of the country, I've run into countless more of the same. Sad, sad, sad.

BUT...

I'm not saying that ALL small church pastors are horrible. I've met many that are not. In fact, I've met men who suffered and struggled in their small churches in order to honor God in that place.

I'm also not saying that ALL large church pastors are good. I've met and worked with many who were not, like the one I served under for a time who drank a bottle of Scope every day... Or the one who refused to heed my warning that the youth pastor was having an illicit affair with one of the 15-year-old girls (and had from the ages of 12-18!). When the church found out, they were devastated.

Good men and evil men inhabit pulpits in all sizes and types of church. To say otherwise is to ignore the facts.

 

Yeah sure. Long post of defense. Most of us know what that means. Why not instead have some humility and admit how it sounds and makes you look.

BTW, I'm not a small church pastor. But I have been a pastor of 240 attending members. That way you can judge me and label me now and fit me into a category.

Seems to me you're still arrogant. That you cannot see your wrong spirit and how you came across in this is, well, telltale.

One could easily say, "those big church pastors think everyone is envious, they are arrogant" and that would be a perfect description of you, friend.

Having a big church, or a small church doesn't matter. But go ahead and stereotype.

I wonder what Scriptures say about comparing one another to one another? glfrederick = BIG church pastor and a KEY to Acts 29 at that!!!! john doe = Small church pastor. Less valuable. Thus, glfrederick is the man!

Why not finish up the judgment completely on all?

You're statment in my first rebuttal, if you will, to you still stands. That you go on uneffected by your own judgmental, arrogant statements is, again, unreal.

And not Christlike whatsoever.

You condemned many pastors on here, and even again, with your "they'll be up in arms." Yep, "they'll." Again, what does the Scriptures say about comparisons?


Have a good day.

 

You really are offended for no particular reason, largely because you are reading motives into what I'm saying... You realize, of course, that you are painting me with a brush that you are holding. I've tried to make it clear that I am not attacking small churches or small church pastors, but you don't want to see that and choose instead to major on a point I'm not even trying to make.

FWIW, I've been the pastor of a church that ran under 25 (for 5 years!) and also another that was under 50 (for 7 years). i led the association for the 5 years while I was pastor of the church under 25, and the entire association of 7 churches could not fill a 200 seat auditorium! I've also planted and helped to plant another 3 churches that all ran under 100 (and one is still under 20!). I qualify to understand small church dynamics and small church pastors. I have a TON more experience with them than I do with larger churches.

Yes, I am currently serving in a non-pastoral role (I'm a house group leader) in a mega-church and before that I was involved with another mega-church (that we left because the pastor went off the deep end). In between, we've been in several mid-sized churches, and did the church plants I mentioned above. I have also done church consulting and have taken an inside look at hundreds of churches. I've seen some horrific stuff and often wonder why God doesn't blow up some of those places. Grace, I guess...

 

:thumbs:

Again, you assume. I'm not offended at you. I've just seen this arrogant spirit too much in our churches, no matter the size.

The log in your eye keeps poking the log in mine. How about that? Common ground.

But, your statement is arrogant. Still.

I say this in all love, be careful brother, we all know what proceeds a haughty spirit.

Do tell what Scripture says on comparing.

In Him with love.

:thumbs:

 

You are correct and what you have offered needs to be taken seriously. There are many (not just a few) car salesmen in the pulpit today. Some get by and some get rich. This is why a church of any size should NEVER allow the Pastor or any person to have the ability to sell,trade or give away anything belonging to the church. There needs to be accountability along with some safeguards. Usually when I see someone take issue with this is it one of several things. One is they are simply ignorant of what is out there and in what proportion. Second they are covering for themselves or some car salesman in that they know of or are involved with. Third they are the car salesman and the truth hits home.

 

As a pastor, I never handled the funds. Never signed checks. never owned anything belonging to the church. That way no one could ever accuse or blame. The church body elected those to do such. I moderated.

Unfortunately we did have Bible College students steal money from the church, along with one of our Mission Board administrators, for all of the churches in our fellowship, which also was a member of the church I pastored at that time. After reporting her to our missions clearing house, she was removed from any authority.

Anyhow,

One bad pastor is mentioned above, and sure, there are more, but this does not justify his comparing himself to others, using stereotypical statements, and beign arrogant. That is my point.

There is not one person on here, unless he or she lives in a cave, that isn't aware of the goings on of said pastors.

But to claim the vast majority, and or a "ton" of smaller churches have worthless pastors? Worthless? A ton of them? Well, let's just say I am glad he said that, and not me. Then to refer to them as envious of larger churches, i.e., envious of him.

The verdict still stands. glfrederick slandered many persons he does not know, and one illustration here does not qualify it as a justifiable offense. It's typical of baptist pastors, and ministers, such as himself, to never ever be wrong, and to be above all rebuke. This is the protocol of the day.

To be frank, he is plain wrong and arrogant. That's not judgment, it's based upon his posts and his own words.

To jump on the bandwagon and use a cover statement, that whomoever, by implication, has a problem with his statement is also guilty, is nothing but hogwash.

I enjoyed it though.

Again, what does the Scriptures say regarding comparing with others, as he has done?

Slandering is what fools do. Check Proverbs. And that applies to all of mankind, including those in the ministry.

- Blessings

 

If your not involved then I gave an out for that, ignorance as to what is really out there and if that is the case why be upset. Just learn about it. Also I would have to wonder why if there was someone under your leadership who was stealing from the church why they were not prosecuted? That sounds fishy. However the fact is that what was mentioned is not rare. It is common and it takes place in all sizes of churches and should be exposed. By the way you mentioned Proverbes and slander. Wasn't you who threw the first stone?

 

Why are you so upset about this?

Also, how in the world you assumed they weren't prosecuted is just plain lame and accusatory. Typical. Eisegetical much? Same with Scriptures for you, if i may also "judge?"

Why weren't they prosecuted? Because it's Scriptural to just allow yourself rather to be defrauded. That's why.

Also, it was my duty to report said lady to the Missions clearing house, and let them handle it how they deemed just.

What does the Scriptures say? Was it also wrong for me to forgive them, or should I take your attitude a step further, being it is not Christian, and hold a grudge?

The only thing fishy here is your judgmental attitude and attempt to place a question mark on my character out of pure assumption, and failure to answer your own "prosecution" questioning in light of the Biblical mandate.

Unreal.

 

JohnDeereFan...

(oh, brother,:BangHead: He's one of THOSE types)

Yes, I am very much a christian.

Here is a little tip for you, bud...

In life, you are going to sometimes encounter christians who see things, including the scriptures, a little differently then you do. Its one of the greatest things God does. He does that deliberatly. Its part of his plan. He likes it that way. (see Romans 14)

It will be a great benefit for you if you get with the program regarding that issue.

Have a great day..

AIC