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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ONENESS, Jul 25, 2003.
If you believe the bible is "That Which is Perfect", Why?
I have some Questions.
God is perfect and so HIS WORD is perfect
and HE is able to preserve it perfectly or GOD
Where has it been preserved perfectly?
In a particular translation?
In a multigenerational copy of an original which no longer exists?
Question is in reference to the scripture:
1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part
shall be done away.
There was extensive input on this subject previously with no conclusion.
As with many topics, there seems to be no answer in the bible. It's a
"take it as you want" type of thing and again it is not important to our
salvation to understand what "perfect" is.....whether the bible, Jesus or
This believer has experienced the workings of the Holy Spirit regardless of
whether others think those things ceased with the onset of the bible.
No one has suggested that "that which is perfect" is the Catholic Church so
either the Catholic Church is not perfect or the gifts have not ceased yet.
Many Catholics believe in the ongoing gifts so it should be safe to say that
the imperfect Catholic Church is not that which is prophesied in the bible as
"that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians.
Isn't it amazing how anything and everything on this board is taken as an invitation to take pot shots at Catholics?
That was quite a stretch. I almost thought we were going to have a thread that was not going to be an attack on the Catholic Church.
That verse is speaking of the coming of the
new heavens and the new earth---when everyone
will see God face to face.
The Bible is under GOD's perfect protection.
We find that there is little difference between
the Old Testament and that which Jesus himself
would have read and quoted. We have the Dead Sea scrolls. We have the witness of the Holy Spirit
to help ALL prayerful translators do their
I agree. Many read this verse and assume that "when that which is perfect comes" has to be the Bible____which makes no sense because even after the Bible came we did not see clearly face to face as St. Paul here is talking about. The partial was not done away with. The Bible came hundreds of years after Christianity started to spread the Gospel. Those alive are still seeing dimly as though through a mirror. It is also not Jesus Christ because He is perfect, but is not a "that".
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:3
And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
1 Corinthians 13:5
does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
1 Corinthians 13:6
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1 Corinthians 13:7
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1 Corinthians 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Paul himself tells us what “when that which is perfect comes” means. It is our own sanctification and holiness our bodies and souls are united in perfection at the end of the world. Then we will see clearly. For now we have faith, hope, and love, and we see in a mirror dimly. We are far from perfect yet. Context is everything here.
Some have been changed...books removed, words added. Have you ever seen the Jehovah Witness translation? The New World Translation...."In the beginning was the word and the word was made flesh. And the word was with God, and the word is a god."
God didn't stop this from happening and spread all over the world.
Except for the seven books Jesus would have been using. Jesus would have been using the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. He would have had the books that the Jews at the Council of Jamnia took out about 100 A.D.
The Old Testament writings Jesus would have used would have used the Greek word "Christ" for Messiah or Annointed One. Amazing, yes?
Some how ever claim this isn't a "perfect"
translation of the Hebrew, and it is better to use the Hebrew even if Jesus was using the Greek.
[ July 25, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
THe NEW WORLD Translation is a MANIPULATED
translation. They went to the extreme to
prove THEIR doctrine.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was
It is an ABOMINATION. BURN IT!
This is the outrage that the Catholic Church felt when Protestant leaders at the Reformation decided to remove seven books from the Old Testament and go with the 100 A.D. Jewish Council of Jamnia's decision to remove from their canon the writings that pointed towards the Christ___the ones used by the Jesus and the first Christians. The Jews did not like that their own Holy Scriptures were being used against them by the Christians.
The Church told Catholics not to read these bibles with missing books and they burned the ones they found in some cases, many filled with just plain errors. The Church told Catholics to read only authorized translations with all the books in them and with no words added or taken away, as in Luther's attempt to slip in "faith alone". The English Douay Rheims was available before the King James Version came out. Protestants likewise burned many Catholics Bibles and made it illegal to read the word of God unless you were a Protestant.
Interesting history. But, no we can't burn all the Jehovah Witness Bibles. I use a copy of it however when they come to my door and ask them why it was changed, and show them what it actually says in the Bible.
Jesus doesn't quote the Apocrypha. The books were
NEVER historically considered a part of the Canon
of scripture when Jesus lived.
One reason the the RC church likes them is
that there is a verse about prayers for the dead.
Jerome didn't want to include them in the Vulgate;
however, the pope at that time insisted.
They are not inspired but works of man...
Corrupting verses to suit personal taste in
doctrine in an entirely different issue...
The canon was closed in A.D 100, after Jesus’ death and Resurrection, in reaction to the Christians using these writings pointing to Christ against the Jews. They decided to cut off their canon about 400 years before the birth of Christ to get rid of these references.
1500 years later, the Protestant leaders, many coming out of the Catholic Church, wanting to reject Catholic teaching, decided to go with the canon these Jewish leaders who were rejecting Christ decided on. It eliminated a lot of problems for them. The Orthodox Church still has the Septuagint Books because we were all one Church. The books were confirmed in multiple councils throughout the years.
Historically as Stephen III said in an earlier post: These books were included in every early list of the canon, e.g by the Council of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), and the Third and Fourth Councils of Carthage (397, 418). Furthermore, Jerome accepted the deuterocanonical books, based upon the authority of the Church. It was Luther who "removed" the books, just as he "removed" (rejected the divine inspiration of) James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation.
It does back up Catholic teaching in many ways. It was also the books that Jesus would have had and used.
That is true, and the Pope is the one with the authority and final say. As stated on another thread, Jerome was initially oppossed to there being canonical- that is until he saw the African churches were accepting them and then he whole heartedly agreed with the decision to include them. He cited them with the introductory formula "God says in the Scriptures" which he used for quotations from the canonical books. After all it is the Pope who has the authority not Jerome in the final decision.
All the Bibles for the first 1500 years then were not inspired because they all had the books in them. It was not until the Reformation that Protestants removed them. It was Luther who "removed" the books, just as he rejected the divine inspiration of James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation. There was a move to get rid of anything that supported Catholic doctrine.
What gave anyone in the time of the Reformation the “authority” to decided what was the word of God and what was not? On what “authority” …the Jewish Council of Jamnia in 100 A.D. years after Christ was born and after their rejecting Him as the Savior?
What is the authority to remove 7 books based on? How about James, Hebrews, and Jude can someone decide it would be easier to teach "faith alone" without them? Who has authority to decide these things?
There is still nothing in either the Catholic or the Protestant bible that would
prevent us from knowing the Gospel.
The Gospel is the story of Jesus.
The Gospel is NOT the story of the Catholic Church.
Where does the authority at the Reformation come from to change the Bible after almost 1500 years?
But how do you know that, with absolute certainty? And how do you know that the writings of other religions are not? And how do you know that other Christian writings are not?
1. God was ALWAYS perfect!
2. God's Word was ALWAYS Perfect!
3. 2Tim 3:16 makes it clear that The OT that Timothy had was "SUFFICIENT" was perfect! Was able to lead to salvation and was able to instruct so that the man of God is sufficiently equipped.
4. Paul never told the church of Corinth "God is not perfect yet - but someday soon He will be".
Paul never said "The Word of God is imperfect BUT SOMEDAY it will be perfect!".
1Cor 13 is pointing to the time when Christ comes and "We See Him as He IS" but until then "WE now see in glass dimly" But Then we shall Know even as we are known. Now we "Walk by Faith" not by sight. For Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things NOT seen.
It would be "very difficult" to turn that clear teaching of God's Word into anything but the walk of the Saints on earth - anticipating glorification - anticipating the second coming... “Groaning within ourselves as Paul states in Romans 8 AND in 2Cor 5 until that glorious day of the “redemption of the body” as Paul states – when the Perfect Comes – and we no longer “see in a glass darkly” but rather – we See Him as He is..
But where do you find, with certainty, without error of addition or omission, the Word of God? And by what means do you know that you may be certain?
But where do you find, with certainty, without error of addition or omission, the Word of
God? And by what means do you know that you may be certain?
For that matter and to be that skeptical, how do we even know there is a God ?
Everyone says that satan is the angel of light and so deceptive as to even cause
blind Protestants to not be able to see the "truth" of Catholicism.........so just
maybe satan has deceived all of us into believing there is a God and there is
eternal life that can be obtained by DOING something or believing something.
No.....that can't be right because if there IS a satan then there IS a God.
Back to square one .