The 1 Point of Calvinism

Thank you both (Mon & NP) for your kind responses. In reference to your above statement, I say amen. And as you would not want to deprive God of any glory, neither would I. I give God all, and I mean all the glory for my salvation. I take no credit for it, there is no merit given to me at all. I know we are not seeing this the same way, but it seems our hearts are coming from the same place. All that I have and all the I am or ever will be is due to God. I just don't fit into the tight theological systems of either the Calvinist or the Arminian. I think both have difficult Scriptures that they cannot deal with except to change them to fit their preconceived theological stance.

I believe God is sovereign. I believe He created us to have a relationship to Him. I believe no one can come to Him unless He is drawn. I believe that it is His will that none should perish. I believe that everything we have is a gift from God, without Him no one can respond to Him. I believe man can resist the Holy Spirit. I believe God created men with the ability to accept or reject Him. I believe that if someone is genuinely saved they are eternally saved.

These beliefs set me outside of both camps. That's alright with me. I choose not to let a theological camp tell me how to interpret Scripture. I would rather leave that up to the Holy Spirit and clear Scripture to help me understand the unclear.

You are correct we had no say in our physical birth. Before that we were nonexistant, except in the mind of God. Once being born through the process of procreation we now are living breathing physical & spiritual beings capable or responding to God. The offer of salvation is meaningless if there is no real offer.

That is my view. You probably don't agree, that's alright. I know my Savior has redeemed me and I am humbly grateful. I am also glad to have Christian brothers to share my thoughts with.

God Bless,
Bro Tony

 

IMO, the "offer" is the glitch in your logic. Nowhere in the Bible does it say salvation is something God offers. People simply interpret verses through that lens.

But the Bible does say very clearly that salvation is for the elect, the chosen.

There are different types of election in the Bible. There is election for a purpose, and there is election for salvation, for example. God elected the Jews to be the people through whom He would communicate part of His nature through the law. That was election for a purpose.

Did God approach the Jews and "offer" them a chance to be His people for this purpose? No. Did the Jews choose to be the elect? No. God chose them for this role. That's what election is - being chosen by God, not being given an offer and choosing it.

 

If that be the case, let me just refer you to one occurance in John 4, where Jesus is talking to the Samaritan woman. Vs. 10, Jesus again talks about the gift of God, clearly He is talking about salvation to this woman. He offers her the gift of living water, she has to choose if she will drink--look at vs 14, whoever drinks.

Agreed, but because God chose the Jewish people did that mean that every Jew was a genuine follower of God? No, each person had to decide if he would follow the law that God gave them. Even Joshua called the Jewish people together in Joshua 24: 15 and said,

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves thsi day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served thta were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Clearly a place of choice for the Chosen People, each man had to make up his mind. God calls people from all people unto Himself today, He offers the gift of eternal life the same way it was offered to the Samaritan woman. Whosoever will may come, whosoever will drink will have eternal life.

In Luke 9: 23 Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me; let hmimdeny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

Blessings,
Bro Tony

 

Hi Everyone;
I couldn't help noticing that the Calvinist involved in this discussion refuse to believe any one can choose Christ. Take a good look at this;
Luk 10:40 But Martha was encumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

What good part do you suppose that is? The best part is Salvation.

For those of you who feel it unscriptural to say Christ offerd Salvation to anyone you are mistaken.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

He also offered it to this man.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me .

How about the disciples;
Mar 1:17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

I like what mark said about the rich man in Matt 19:21 better;
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

This man was offered Salvation and refused it by his own freewill. If you can deny this, then you deny God's word is truth.

May God Bless You All with light;
Mike

 

"If" is not an offer anymore than "whosoever" means anybody without exception.

This is what Jesus says in John 4.

10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, "Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

There's no "offer" in here. If this statement implies anything at all, it implies that if she only knew to whom she was talking (if it had been divinely revealed to her through the Spirit), then there is surety that she would have asked Jesus for living water. But even that conclusion is a bit aggressive.

And by the way, look at her response:

11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?"

She didn't even have a clue what He was talking about.

This is not an offer of salvation, and it doesn't say anything about why or how anyone might desire to come after Him.

Show me the verse that says "whosoever will may come".

I can show you one that says "whosoever believes", which simply says "those who believe". It does not say anything about why or how they believe. I can also say "whosoever will drink this poison will die." That statement is perfectly true, but it doesn't mean I'm offering to hand out poison to anyone who wants it.

 

NP,

You are removing everything from the simple place it has in the time it took place. clearly Jesus is there offering eternal life to the woman, clearly she has a choice, clearly she makes the right choice as the end of this passage shows.

You state that "whosoever believes" means "those who believe" as if that is an accepted fact. The clearest meaning is what it says, whosoever. "Whosoever believes" means Whosoever believes, the greek would have stated "those that believe" if that is what was meant. Chopping up John 3: 16 allows one to take it out of context. It clearly states God loves the whole world, He sent His Son so that whosoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

1 John 2: 2--"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world"

Seems pretty plain to me, seems pretty straight forward. I guess I just kind of believe God is able to inspire the writers to say what He wants them to say.

Blessings,

Bro Tony

 

I beleive pretty much exactly as Bro Tony stated, and so I do not really fall into either camp (I think a lot of us are in the "Neither camp").

I don't think the analogy between being born physically and being born spiritually is valid. They both involve a birth but there is no Biblical support for seeing these as the same thing. No one can choose to be conceived because you do not exist yet at that point. An unborn child cannot choose anything, nor can a newly born child. So to say that just as we cannot choose to be born physically, we cannot choose to be born spiritually is actually invalid.

But once one is beyond a certain age, choices can be made. Here we see Jesus saying that some have been unwilling to believe in Him:

I agree with Bro Tony that the obvious meaning is what is meant.

 

Physical death at the bottom of the sea represents what happens from not being "saved" from drowning (i.e. corresponds to Hell ), and we were spiritually "dead", but not already in Hell. Now for someone in Hell, nobody is arguing that He can get out, so your concept of "dead" can fit better that situation. This shows there are at least different levels of "spiritual death", which are being confused. (Others point out that if you're going to push spiritual "death" to the point of having the propeties of physical death (a state of total inaction), then the "dead" person can't sin and reject God either!)

 

You'd better tell Jesus that the analogy of physical death is inappropriate. He doesn't seem to know that.

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Note also this...

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

 

This matter of death is interesting. There have been several posts by those who state that physical death is a state of non-existance, ie. not knowing, feelinf or being able to respond to anything. Is this really what physical death is like, not according to the Scripture. Jesus tells us that the dead do know, feel and can respond to things. If this were not true than how is the statement in Scripture "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord..." How can the dead do this if the dead cannot know, feel or respond. Apparently they can, we know these will not be saved but they will confess.

Now that brings me to the place of what can someone who is spiritually dead do? I think we would all agree that they are separated for the source of eternal life that is Christ. Anyone not in Christ does not have everlasting life. Does that mean they are non existant spiritual beings unable to know, feel or respond. I do not believe so. The offer of salvation is to the lost, there is no way for the lost to respond if spiritual death means their incapable. There is too much Scripture that indicates otherwise.

That is some of my thoughts on this matter of death. I confess they are not complete and I am still working them out as I study.

Still would like a comment on 1 John 2: 2 verse.

Blessings,
Bro Tony

 

1. It is not an offer. John 5:21 says, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." Jesus does NOT say "offers life to whomever will accept it."

2. You are correct that there is no way for the lost to respond -- unless they are first regenerated by the Spirit.

Notice that Jesus makes a direct comparison AS the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, EVEN SO the Son gives life.

Now you have to ask yourself one question - do ya feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? No, wait, that's not the question. The question is, when the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, is the Father "offering" to them the option of being raised from the dead? Is the Father letting them choose for themselves who will be raised from the dead and given life?

If not, and if Jesus makes the comparison, and the comparison is THAT clear, and it is also THAT clear that Jesus says He gives life to whom He will, NOT "offers life to whom will accept it", then why does anyone think he/she has the right to invalidate this crystal clear illustration and statement with mere speculation about words like "whosoever" -- which I have repeatedly demonstrated proves nothing for either Arminians or Calvinists?

Okay. The word "world" is "kosmos". Defined in Strongs as:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars

It's a figure of speech. Just like when you tell your wife she's the prettiest woman in the whole world - something that is clearly impossible since my wife is the prettiest in the universe.

 

NP,

Now you know that you have not given the complete meaning of this word in the greek. And then to say it is a figure of speech, well that is a conclusion that you could not nor would have come to except that you have already decided to interpret all Scripture according to a calvinistic bent. No one reading this verse in Greek or English would come to that conclusion, because the clear meaning is not symbolic.

Now as to this point I guess here is another area where we are going to have to agree to disagree

Bro Tony

 

All scripture posted is from the NASB.


John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

John 4:42 and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

Now, these are verses that the Calvinists and Arminians have to explain.

 

Again, I say it's a figure of speech. It's like the president saying "I now announce to the whole world that we are no longer going to tolerate terrorism!" Now, doesn't he know that statement will not actually reach each and ever living person in the entire world? Of course. But the point is not that his statement will actually reach every ear. The point is that his pronouncement is something bigger than a statement to be made to the immediate hearers or immediate country. This has world-wide impact.

Arminians want "whole world" to mean "every one wo ever lived, lives, or will live". If it meant that, it would directly contradict other explicit scripture. It doesn't take much digging to find out that Jesus doesn't save everyone who ever lived, lives or will live in the whole world.

 

They are not saying that Jesus saves everyone. But they do believe He died for everyone. But the blood cannot be applied without faith. It's just that you think the faith is given by God because you think men dead in their sins cannot respond.

Also, someone earlier said that faith is not a work but "placing faith" is (or words to that effect). There is no scriptural support for that statement at all. Faith and works are contrasted, and there is no discussion that "placing" faith is a work.

 

Amen

Marcia,

I would just add to that this point. If Calvinists continue to insist that faith is a work then they have to admit that they believe in salvation through works. Scripture clearly states that salvation is by Grace through faith so even if it is faith caused by God only in the elect, it is still a "work" according to them and therefore they must teach that we are saved through "works." They contradict themselves.

 

I believed that, too, until only a week ago. I'm beginning to believe in limited atonement. But since I'm only just coming to this conclusion, it's not something I'm ready to defend - especially because I may change my mind again.

No, I don't think faith is Given by God. The Bible says so.

Faith is not a work. Arminians make it a work by turning it into a "free-will decision that has its source in the believer, not God".

It all comes down to the question, "What makes the believer different than the non-believer?" If the answer is "The believer chose of his own free will to accept the Gospel", then you create a situation where one person has the right to boast that his personal decision was better than another's personal decision. This directly contradicts scripture in many places, not the least of which:

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

 

Nick, once again you take scripture out of its context as a proof text.

The passage says: 6 Dear brothers and sisters,* I have used Apollos and myself to illustrate what I've been saying. If you pay attention to the Scriptures,* you won't brag about one of your leaders at the expense of another. 7 What makes you better than anyone else? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why boast as though you have accomplished something on your own?

As you can clearly see, if your not approching the text with an adjenda, Paul is speaking about those who boast about their leader (Paul or Apollos) to the expense of the other leader. In that context Paul reminds them that one believer is not better than the other. See, NICK, he is not comparing believers with non-believers as you assume.

You continue to ask this line of questions ASSUMING that this passage is asking what makes you different than those who aren't saved, when it is clear that this has more to do with the question I raised that you continue to avoid.

Why do know more about God's plan of redemption than us poor Arminians? You boast because you are of Calvin and others boast because they are of Arminius, but what do we have that we did not receive? In other words, what do we know that we did not learn from others? And if you did learn, the real truth of Christ's love, why do you act the way you do by boasting as if you didn't learn it. That is the lesson being taught here...one someone on this board who treats other believers with disrespect needs to learn.