The 4th Commandment Sabbath WAS change but not in the Bible

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    As R.C Sproul and even the Baptist Confession of Faith proves the 4th commandment as given by God in the actual Bible - points to Saturday, the 7th day - the "last day of the week".

    Baptist Confession of Faith. Section 22. Point 7.

    "From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week"

    NONE of those authors goes around arguing that the Israel at Sinai - were all "keeping Sunday".

    They all admit that the Bible Sabbath is the 7th day - Saturday and Sunday is the FIRST day of the week. Impossible to miss.

    [FONT=&quot]============================================

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot] A recent video shows a Baptist Pastor agreeing with the Catholic Church claim that the 4th Commandment has been changed by man - and yet also agreeing with the Baptist Confession of Faith - not only about the change of the 4th commandment - but also the fact that the TEN commandments were given to mankind in Eden.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO8kVXUQ3ZU


    The Catholic position on this topic appears to be something like this --

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrB21mc2fmI[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]========================================================[/FONT]
    as “The Catholic church fully endorses the Sabbath commandment as edited by the Catholic Church" vs "the Catholic church fully endorsed the Sabbath commandment as worded by God at Sinai"

    The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
    (short summary)
    changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".


    [FONT=&quot]page 243

    "Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]============ Baptist Confession of Faith - agreement up to a point.[/FONT]

    Point 7 – Section 22 Baptist Confession of Faith.
    As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2013
  2. The Biblicist

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    All of this has been answered over and over again. Notice that Bob is relying on opinions of men. The fourth commandment does not contain the words "of the week" because it is designed to be a PRINCIPLE that has various and greater applications by God and that is self-evident to any reader of Levitucs 23-25 and Psalm 118:20-24/Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4:9-11; etc.

    In regard to a consistent weekly application I believe Bob is right at least from the giving of the ten commandments to the Jews to the resurrection of Christ. However, the Messianic application of the Sabbath law in Leviticus and the Prophetic application in Psalms prove the application is not only possible of change but did in fact change to another day of the week as the consistent and regular application.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    hint: your own "Baptist Confession of Faith" uses the preposition "Of the week" for the 7th day of the week - the 4th commandment's specific day of the week - identified by God from Gen 2:3 "From the beginning of the world" onward.

    Your argument is not only with the text of scripture - it is with your own Baptist documents, your own "Baptist Confession of Faith".

    it just does not get any easier than this.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

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    The Bible only knows of one "seventh day" in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 16 - BEFORE The Law is written in stone - while mankind is STILL bound by the Gen 2:3 version of the Sabbath God informs them that "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

    Also true of Adam on his first day of Life - "Tomorrow is the Sabbath".

    Amen and Amen!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. SovereignMercy

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    Sorry to interrupt your sermon, but the elect believe in the new covenant and that Jesus fulfilled the old. That's why we follow the pattern of Jesus and His apostles, not that of false apostles that started teaching false doctrines in the 1800's, denying Jesus Christ's statement that He would build His church and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

    Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you."

    Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

    And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

    But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

    BR, I grew up with SDA neighbors near your Union College. I don't understand why the admins give you free reign here. Isn't there an SDA forum you could spend your time in?
     
  6. BobRyan

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    True.

    And then when the elect actually "read" the New Covenant - they find in Heb 8 and in Jeremiah 31:31-33 that the Jeremiah 31 context for LAW of God - is "written on the mind and heart" under the New Covenant instead of abolished.
    ============================
    Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

    19. The Law of God

    1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.


    2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

    3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

    4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

    5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.


    6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expectedin this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

    7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

    C.H. Spurgeon in his 19th century edit of the “Baptist Confession of Faith” of 1689.


    See also the Westminster Confession of Faith - from the 19th century in similar format.
    ===========================

    Is this where you are opposing the Protestant Reformation and its claim that the RCC had taken a wrong turn in the dark ages?

    Is this the "other Baptist denominations" section of the board?? If so I missed that detail.

    Maybe some of the Admins have read and accepted the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - or they have heard Andy Stanley's sermon on the TEN Commandments, or they read C.H. Spurgeon or R.C. Sproul on the subject of the TEN Commandments still applicable to the saints today - you never know.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2013
  7. Yeshua1

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    You CANNOT prove anything that you hold to from the bible, its ALL the false rRevelations from Ellen White!
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Is this where you claim that the points where I DO agree with D.L. Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith and where you are at war with their doctrine - is due to their following of Ellen White?

    Are you even making sense at this point?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. DHK

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    It has been sad to see, these last few days, that you have left the Bible of which you once claimed to be sola scriptura, and are now "sola Moody, Spurgeon and Baptist Confession."
    I have never known anyone to take that position, not even a Baptist.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    It is sad to see that you are choosing the solution that says that I or any SDA follows Moody, or Spurgeon or the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as our (or as my) Pope.

    Even the loudest nay-sayers on this board will argue that Ellen White or some other SDA source is our "Pope" - but you are the first to start that with Spurgeon or Moody or the Baptist Confession of Faith.

    As I said on the thread that I started talking about "TWO Baptist Views" - the view that I take from the Bible sola happens to be a combination of two different Baptist views.

    The Bible view - is in fact the best of both - and leaves their errors in the dust.

    The view that says
    1. Ten Commandments are the moral law of God.
    2. Were given to mankind in Eden.
    3. Included the 7th day Sabbath - Saturday.
    4. Sabbath still applicable today for the saints.

    Is combined with the view that says.
    1. You cannot bend or edit the Sabbath to point to Sunday.
    2. The sunday keeping of today is not Sabbath it is tradition.

    ---

    As I point out in that other thread months ago - when you COMBiNE those points - (all of which are supported from scripture) you get my view.

    When someone in view-A is at war with view-B they will often choose to oppose the other view on the VERY points that Moody and others defend.

    That not-so-subtle detail is not lost on me. As you can see.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86136&page=2

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Jul 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2013
  11. DHK

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    Your appeal to any other authority but Scripture is sad. I really don't care about your appeal to confessions and former preachers, just as I don't care if you appeal to EGW. They are not my authority.
    The Bible, and the Bible alone is our final authority. In fact "sola scriptura" means "only Scripture," or scripture alone. I don't appeal to former preachers or confessions. SDA's do appeal to EGW and "The Great Controversy. They are meaningless to me.
    That is a lie and a misrepresentation. I have examined Moody's document and you misrepresent him continually. He does not believe in the Sabbath. You take statements of the other Confession out of context as well. Neither one, or a combination of both represent your view. That is a lie.
    The ten commandments were not given in Eden.
    Your view is way off.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    The Bible view - is in fact the best of both - and leaves their errors in the dust.

    The view that says
    1. Ten Commandments are the moral law of God.
    2. Were given to mankind in Eden.
    3. Included the 7th day Sabbath - Saturday.
    4. Sabbath still applicable today for the saints.

    Is combined with the view that says.
    1. You cannot bend or edit the Sabbath to point to Sunday.
    2. The sunday keeping of today is not Sabbath it is tradition.

    ---

    As I point out in that other thread months ago - when you COMBiNE those points - (all of which are supported from scripture) you get my view.

    When someone in view-A is at war with view-B they will often choose to oppose the other view on the VERY points that Moody and others defend.

    That not-so-subtle detail is not lost on me. As you can see.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...t=86136&page=2

    Indeed that is the assertion made in the second argument above - but it is the part of that view that does not work because it ignores the fact that the TEN commandments are the moral law - written on the heart and mind - even under the New Covenant.

    Eph 6 - IN THAT unit of 10 the 5th commandment is "The FIRST commandment with a promise".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Jul 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2013
  13. DHK

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    --excluding the Sabbath.
    Tell me: what is moral or immoral for a pagan to keep the Sabbath?
    There is no morality involved unlike adultery, taking another's wife. Now that is immoral. Keeping the sabbath is not. That command is not written on any man's heart.
    Assert as you will but you can't prove it.
    Do you have a different Bible? Is that what EGW teaches? Where does this come from? The Ten Commandments are not in Genesis--anywhere!!!
    The first time the word "sabbath" occurs is in Exodus. It doesn't occur in Genesis. You are deliberately lying or deliberately deceived. Which one? I think the latter is probably true. You have believed this so long you are deceived. There is no sabbath in Genesis 2, much less in the entire book.
    Only if you are of the nation of Israel. Of which tribe are you?
    The Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel and only the nation of Israel. Check Exodus 31. I find it strange that you avoid that passage.
    I don't.
    I worship the Lord every day. No day is different than any other day. The early church met every day.
    Dream on. I have refuted everything you said.
    Moody did not keep the Sabbath and did not believe in keeping the Sabbath. You misrepresent him which is deceitful and wicked.
    I don't keep the Sabbath.
    I don't believe any Christian should be keeping the Sabbath today.
    I believe that keeping the Sabbath is as important as keeping Juma or the Muslim holy day is to the Muslims. Why not keep both the Sabbath and "Juma." We aren't Jews and we aren't Muslims. We are believers in Christ, and the Sabbath is not for today.
    [quote'Indeed that is the assertion made in the second argument above - but it is the part of that view that does not work because it ignores the fact that the TEN commandments are the moral law - written on the heart and mind - even under the New Covenant.[/quote]
    Keeping the Sabbath was never written on any man's heart. It is a sign of the covenant given to the Jews by Jehovah. Study Exodus 31.
     
  14. Eliyahu

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    I think the Law written in the heart of the people( Romans 2:15) was written at the time of Eden, but it was rather primitive Law.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    The Sabbath commandment is given in Eden - as we see in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 20:11 where the Gen 2:3 detail "alone" is given as the origin for the Sabbath.

    If you want to argue that rebellion against parents, lying, stealing, murder, idol worship, taking God's name in vain etc was not forbidden in Eden - I think you have an even larger uphill battle.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    It would certainly include

    Deut 6:5
    Lev 19:18

    Ex 20:2-17

    Once Adam and Eve reached the end of Genesis 2 -- all you have to do is consider a world without sin for at least one generation and ask yourself which of those commandments they could have violated without being in sin.

    They lived in a world where "God walked and talked" with them in the Garden in the cool of the day. Both OT and NT say that "God does not change".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. DHK

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    There is no command given in Genesis 2:3.
    The only command given in the garden is not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    You are free to ignore the details I gave if you wish.

    But the texts given - provide irrefutable proof.
     
  19. DHK

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    I am not ignoring any details. You refuse to answer questions.
    Where in Genesis 2:3 is there a command to keep the Sabbath?
    No answer??
     
  20. Herald

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    Whoa. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith confesses Sunday as the Lord's Day, not Saturday. It begins by stating that from the beginning the Sabbath was on the 7th day of the week but changed to the 1st day of week under the New Covenant.

    I'm just correcting the record. Don't lump confessional Baptists in with the author of the OP.
     

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