The 7-year tribulation period error

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Sep 4, 2003.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    One of the most notable errors in pre-trib is that there is a 7-year tribulation period. The Bible never speaks of a 7-year tribulation period. (If you believe I am in error, please provide scripture that defines a 7-year tribulation period.) I believe this error is partly responsible for the mistaken conclusion that there is a pre-tribulation rapture.

    One can combine various scriptures in Daniel to conclude that the abomination of desolation associated with the man of sin occurs in the middle of the 70th week. Not everyone agrees that the 70th week is a future event, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it is a future event.

    In that case, we can see from Matthew 24 when the great tribulation actually begins:

    So we can see the "great tribulation" begins with the abomination of desolation, which occurs at the MIDDLE of the 70th week (assuming the 70th week is future). So even if pre-trib were true, it would actually be "mid-trib", since the "trib" doesn't occur until the middle of the 70th week.

    To save time, let's assume that the abomination of desolation event is where the man of sin is revealed. (Again, if you disagree, please provide scripture to show these are two different things.)

    Note what Paul says to the Thessalonians, who mistakenly believed that the Day of the Lord had already occurred:

    Note that Paul explains how they can know that the Day of the Lord cannot have occurred. These preceding events -- the falling away and the man of sin revealed -- have not yet occurred.

    If pre-trib (even if it's misnomer for mid-trib) is true, then Paul's explanation makes no sense. If believers will be raptured before the man of sin is revealed, why tell them that they can know that the Day of the Lord hasn't come yet because they haven't yet seen the man of sin revealed? Why tell them the way to avoid being deceived by referring to a sign they cannot possibly be present to witness?

    That puts believers on earth after the man of sin is revealed, which is (by the reckoning of many) an event that occurs in the middle of Daniel's 70th week and launches the great tribulation.

    Finally, Jesus tells us the exact order of events regarding the Day of the Lord. The signs of the Day of the Lord are the celestial signs described in this passage...and Jesus says they occur immediately after the [great] tribulation.

    One final thought -- I just know someone is going to use the illustration that the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible, but the trinity still exists. Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to say that the 7-year tribulation period exists even if the Bible never uses those words. If anyone is tempted to do so, I ask those people to be specific with their scripture quotes in order to identify clearly that there is a 7-year period of tribulation that has an indisputable beginning 3 1/2 years before the abomination of desolation and the man of sin is revealed. The Bible may not use the word "trinity" but it does clearly refer to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If there is not as clear a reference to the 7-year tribulation period, then those who hold to that view have a real problem on their hands.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Failing to recognize a distinction between teh Tribulations (7 years) and the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) leads you to your mistaken conclusion. The Great Tribulation is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, yet another indication of the pretrib rapture since "Jacob" is a reference to Israel being judged for their sins; the church's sins have already been judged.

    The question I have never been able to get any from your side to give a satisfactory answer to is the question of "Why were they troubled by this?" If you are right (that Paul taught a posttrib rapture), their being in teh DOL would not have concerned them in the least; they would have expected it. Yet the teaching that they were in the DOL troubled them because they understood from Paul's teaching that they were to have been raptured out ahead of time.

    Paul did not tell them they would witness this. I think Paul was telling them that if the false teachers were right, this would have happened by then. He did not tell them that they would see it (and you can read the text to verify that).

    We don't have any problem with believers being on the earth during the Tribulation. There most certainly will be. There are people saved during the Tribulation. However, all the church (those saved in the church age) will be raptured before the Tribulation.

    None of which contradicts a pretrib position.

    The Tribulation is the result of correlating Scripture. Your position is the result of correlating Scripture. Scripture does not explicitly teach your view. You simple correlate Scripture in a way that we would say is inconsistent and inadequate
     
  3. Doubting Thomas

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    Yeah, but where does Scripture state that the "tribulation" is identical with the 70th week of Daniel? It doesn't. Only by accepting the pre-trib scenario a priori can one "correlate" scripture to make such an identification. This is very problematic given the pre-trib view is only a couple hundred years old. The consensus of Christian belief up from the beginning is that the Anti-Christ will come first (as it states in 2 Thess 2) before Christ comes, and there is no notion of a secret coming beforehand to evacuate the church.
     
  4. Pete Richert

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    We had this discussion once. The problem with your question is that you assume the DOL refers to the tribulation. I believe most post-trib believe the DOL referes to the second coming of Christ, also known as the Day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1). Indeed, since I didn't realize DOL could refer to the seven year tribulation, I couldn't understand how anyone could be pre-trib because it specifically says the man of lawlessness must be revealed first. Now I believe the question hinges on what DOL really is and there is in no way an agreement on this among scholars and commentators (for a view that bascially resembles what I used to believe before discussing this with pastor larry, see Schreiner's "Paul, an Aposlte of God's Glory in Christ").

    If DOL refers to the second coming, then they would indeed be very troubled. Somehow they missed the second coming of Christ? Things are continuing as before and indeed, they are even still in persecution?
     
  5. npetreley

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    Show me the scriptural support for the time of Jacob's trouble being a 7 year period of tribulation.

    They were concerned that the Day of the Lord had already come, and they had been left behind when they should have been raptured. The pre-wrath rapture means the Day of the Lord is the time of wrath, which is what we are spared. So they would have been raptured by then.

    No, Paul didn't come right out and say "You would witness this", but the explanation makes no sense otherwise. Why point out to them that an event would have to have happened first if they would be raptured by then?

    Suppose you're driving east and ask me if you missed your exit for Charlotte, NC. I say, "No, and you can know you didn't miss your exit, because you haven't even gotten to the exit for Asheville yet, which comes first." Why would I say that to you if I knew you were going to stop in Memphis and take a plane the rest of the way? Surely I expected you to see the exit for Asheville, or I wouldn't have told you that's how you could tell you hadn't missed your exit.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

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    Often, pretribulationism teaches, "Jacob's Trouble" of Jer. 30:7 is 7 year tribulation period. But, Jer. 30:7 does not saying it is 7 year of tribulation period.

    Jer. 30:7 speaks of Israel got in trouble with Babylon, then later freed from the captivity under Babylon.

    Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2500 years ago.

    You have to read context start with Jeremaih chapter 29 continue through chapter 30. Chapter 29 speaks of Jeremiah, the prophet warned to Israel, that Babylon will invade and God will punish Israel, if not repent. Chapter 30 speaks of Israel already punished and taken into captivity under Babylon, then later freed from the captivity for 70 years under Babylon.

    Jer. 30:7 do nothing with future 7 year of tribulation period.

    Also, there is no scripture saying there will be 7 year of tribulation period.

    Of course, pretribbers would saying YES!

    Book of Revelation is not chronologically, nothing in the book of Revelation saying there will be seven year of tribulation period. It tell us, only 3 1/2 years or 42 months.

    How can you prove that 666 or Antichrist will be revealed while in the MIDDLE of the seven year of Tribulation period according to revelation chapter 13???

    You can't prove it.

    You have to be realize that Revelation show of retelling the events, and also, there are cycles of the events in Revelation.

    I have been reading Revelation so many times. At first, I thought it was chronological, but later, I realized it is not chronological.

    I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat very carefully, take your time.

    Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled at the Calvary, not suppose future seven year of tribulation period.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Failing to recognize a distinction between teh Tribulations (7 years) and the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) leads you to your mistaken conclusion. The Great Tribulation is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, yet another indication of the pretrib rapture since "Jacob" is a reference to Israel being judged for their sins; the church's sins have already been judged.

    The question I have never been able to get any from your side to give a satisfactory answer to is the question of "Why were they troubled by this?" If you are right (that Paul taught a posttrib rapture), their being in teh DOL would not have concerned them in the least; they would have expected it. Yet the teaching that they were in the DOL troubled them because they understood from Paul's teaching that they were to have been raptured out ahead of time.

    Paul did not tell them they would witness this. I think Paul was telling them that if the false teachers were right, this would have happened by then. He did not tell them that they would see it (and you can read the text to verify that).

    We don't have any problem with believers being on the earth during the Tribulation. There most certainly will be. There are people saved during the Tribulation. However, all the church (those saved in the church age) will be raptured before the Tribulation.

    None of which contradicts a pretrib position.

    The Tribulation is the result of correlating Scripture. Your position is the result of correlating Scripture. Scripture does not explicitly teach your view. You simple correlate Scripture in a way that we would say is inconsistent and inadequate
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it! [​IMG]


    Note the Bible does NOT say:
    That if npetreley shalt confess with his
    mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
    in npetreley's heart that God hath raised
    Jesus from the dead,
    npetreley shalt be saved.

    Nevertheless, though the Bible does not
    say it, it is true, very true.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Deafpostrib: "Book of Revelation is not chronologically, nothing in the book of Revelation saying there will be seven year of tribulation period. It tell us, only 3 1/2 years or 42 months."

    Yes, 3½-years
    = 42 months
    = 1260 days
    = "time, times, and half a time"
    This time period is mentioned five
    times in Revelation and twice elsewhere
    in the Bible. Some of these events
    are mutually exclusive: both cannot happen
    at the same time. Therefore by the book of
    Revelation we get that the full Tribulation
    period will be 7-years long (as
    prophesied by Daniel).

    [​IMG]
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Did you have some sort of point you forgot to add?
     
  10. LadyEagle

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    I got your point, Ed, and I'm half asleep. Preach it, Brother Ed & Larry!

    Listenin' for that sweet trumpet sound,
    She Eagle [​IMG]

    (Chiming in only, the never ending going round and round makes me tired...so very tired, sighing now. I see Jesus appearing now, trumpets blowing, saying "come up here" to His badly beaten, bruised, and scarred bride who just went through the Great Tribulation. Of course her wedding garments aren't spotless, no, rather, they are ripped, shredded, soiled, and stained from enduring the 7 years of hell on earth, raped & plundered by the anti-Christ...nevertheless, the Bridegroom comes for the battered Bride, His Church...sigh....) [/ :rolleyes: ]
     
  11. npetreley

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    Can you quote some actual scripture to demonstrate why you have to reach your conclusion? That would be a lot more convincing than just saying it is so. All you've demonstrated so far is that scripture says there is a period of 3 1/2 years (more or less - there is an addition to that in Daniel). I can find those scriptures, myself, so I won't argue with you about it.

    The rest of what you've stated, however, is pure conjecture without scripture to back it up.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV1769):

    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
    to finish the transgression,
    and to make an end of sins,
    and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
    and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
    and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
    and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand,
    that from the going forth of the commandment
    to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah
    the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
    the street shall be built again,
    and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall
    Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
    and the people of the prince that shall
    come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    ;
    and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
    and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant
    with many for one week:
    and in the midst of the week he shall
    cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
    and for the overspreading of abominations
    he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,
    and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    If you don't see that "he" here in verse 27
    is the Antichrist, then you will really have a time
    getting anything down about the seven years Tribulation
    period with the Abomination of Desolation (AOD)
    in the middle of the 7-years (i.e. 3½-years past
    the beginning and 3½-years before the end).

    Some want to say that "he" in Daniel 9:27 is
    "Messiah the Prince". But Messiah Jesus speaks of
    the prophecy of Daniel in Matthew 24:15. From what
    Jesus (the Christ /in Greek/ the Messiah /in Hebrew/
    the Chosen One of God /in English/) says in
    Matthew, it seems apparent to me that Daniel 9:27
    the "he" is speaking of the Antichrist (AC).
    So the AC will reign 7 years: 3½-years before the
    AOD and 3½-years after the AOD.

    Interesting how divergance of theology and
    variation of doctrine comes from the resolution
    of the referrant of a simple pronoun like "he"
    as in Daniel 9:27.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Thank you Sister SheEagle.
    It is the blind who do not see the clear
    truths of the Holy Bible.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Doubting Thomas

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    Ed, you still haven't shown that the Tribulation is equated with the entire "70th week". Most scriptures (eg. Matt 24) refer to the great tribulation occuring after the abomination of desolation which is midway through the 70th week, and scriptures (particularly in Daniel and Revelation) focus on the second half of the week (3 1/2 years, or "time, times and half a time",or 42 months or 1260 days) as the Beast's reign of terror. Nowhere is the Tribulation equated with the entire "7 years".
     
  15. npetreley

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    I'm not sure if this was supposed to be a response to my post, since it doesn't really address the issue of scriptural support for a 7-year tribulation period. Assuming it is a response to my post, I have these comments:

    1. I'm not certain that the 70th week is a future event. I suspect it is, but I am open to the possibility that I'm wrong. But for the sake of discussion about a 7-year tribulation period, I'll assume it is, and that the event described above is indeed the abomination of desolation, which occurs in the middle of the week.

    2. What you have therefore established is that there is a future 7 year period. What you have also established (not fully, but I do agree with this conclusion) is that in the middle of the week, there is the abomination of desolation.

    That's all you've established from scripture, no more. There is nothing in what you've quoted that says the 70th week (of years) is a "tribulation period". At best, all you've shown from scripture is that there may be a 70th week, and if so, then it is likely that the abomination of desolation occurs in the middle of that week.

    What I have pointed out repeatedly from scripture is that the abomination of desolation launches the great tribulation. I have also established from scripture that the Day of the Lord occurs immediately after the great tribulation. I have not established anything about the first half of the 70th week, although I am familiar with verses that could be used to describe that time (though not as clearly and directly as the scriptures I've used for the above).

    But that's not what I'm after -- I already know what I think about the first half of the 70th week - I'm still waiting for you to provide some scripture to support what you think about it.
     
  16. rufus

    rufus
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    The Great Tribulation. The Teaching of Jesus. The precise expression, "great tribulation" (Matt. 24:21; Rev. 2:22; 7:14, Gr. thlipsis megale), serves to identify the eschatological form of tribulation. These words are Jesus' caption for a worldwide, unprecedented time of trouble that will usher in the parousia, Jesus' return to earth in great glory (see parallels Mark 13:19, "tribulation," and Luke 21:23, "great distress"; also Rev. 3:10, "hour of trial").

    This period of time will be initiated by the "abomination of desolation" (Matt. 24:15) predicted in Dan. 9:27, a desecration of the "holy place" by one whom many scholars believe is the same as the "man of lawlessness" of II Thess. 2:3, 4. Jesus gives specific instructions to inhabitants of Judea for their escape and warns that the intensity of its calamities would almost decimate all life (Matt. 24:15-22).

    Views of the Great Tribulation. Though some modern interpreters, along with many ancient commentators and early fathers, are inclined to regard Jesus' predictions as totally fulfilled during the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the words of Matt. 24:29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days," seem to connect them with the parousia. Jesus' words in verse 21 are probably an allusion to Dan. 12:1 because of the reference there to unparalleled trouble (LXX, thlipsis). The Daniel passage strengthens the case for the eschatological view of the great tribulation, because it places this period prior to the resurrection of Daniel's people.

    Since Jesus made this prophecy, major wars, catastrophes, and cosmic phenomena have stimulated belief in the presence of the great tribulation. Such a tendency is typified by Hesychius of Jerusalem in some correspondence with Augustine. Augustine disagreed, preferring to interpret such things instead as characteristics of history as a whole with no particular eschatological significance. In modern times some premillennialists have speculated on the trend of current events as possible precursors of the great tribulation, some even attempting to identify the antichrist with such candidates as Kaiser Wilhelm II and Mussolini.

    Adherents of the major millennial views place the great tribulation at different points in relation to the millennium. Both postmillennialists and amillennialists regard it as a brief, indefinite period of time at the end of the millennium, usually identifying it with the revolt of Gog and Magog of Rev. 20:8-9. Postmillennialists view history as moving toward the Christianization of the world by the church and a future millennium of undetermined length on earth culminating in the great tribulation and final return of Christ. In contrast, amillennialists consider the millennium to be a purely spiritual reality from the first advent to the second, a period lasting already two thousand years and to culminate in the great tribulation, a somewhat less optimistic view of history and the progress of the gospel witness.

    To premillennialists the millennium is a future, literal thousand years on earth, and the great tribulation a chaotic period toward which history is even now moving, a decline, i.e., to be terminated by the return of Christ before the millennium. One group, which describes itself as "historic" premillennialists, understands the great tribulation to be a brief but undetermined period of trouble. Another group, dispensational premillennialists, connects it with the seventieth week of Dan. 9:27, a period of seven years whose latter half pertains strictly to the great tribulation.

    Within the premillennial movement another issue, the time of the rapture of the church, has given rise to three views. Pretribulationists (rapture prior to the seventieth week) and midtribulationists (rapture at the middle of the seventieth week) perceive the great tribulation as characterized by the wrath of God upon an unbelieving world from which the church is necessarily exempt (I Thess. 5:9).

    Posttribulationists believe that the great tribulation is merely an intensification of the kind of tribulation the church has suffered throughout history, through which the church logically must pass. A more recent, novel view in the posttribulation camp seeks to maintain the imminence of the rapture despite the fact that notable tribulational events would necessarily intervene. In order to do so, the events of the great tribulation would be "potential" but uncertain in their fulfillment. Jesus could come at any moment, and one could look back into recent history to see events that fulfilled the great tribulation.

    Rufus [​IMG]
     
  17. npetreley

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    The specific instructions, along with the parallel in Daniel, make me suspect the great tribulation will be Israel-centric, more or less. It may not be - I don't know. But given the descriptions in Revelation, the wrath that begins with the Day of the Lord is clearly global.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    It just took me 27-min to get a
    posting screen. I'm several posts behind.

    Npetreley: "Assuming it is
    a response to my post, I
    have these comments: ... "

    Yes, your assumption is correct.
    And thank you for forthright comments
    (in contranst to elsewhere & elsewho
    posts which are really wishy-washy ;) )

    Seems strange to me that the various doctrines
    seem to hinge on simple words!
    1. the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
    2. the initial "and" in Matthew 24:31
    3. "first" in Revelation 20:5
    4. Prophetic "day"
    and other simple concepts:
    5. chapter division in 1 Thessalonains 4 & 5
    6. the refferant of "he" for Daniel 9:27

    Here are the five references in Revelation to
    the 3½-years:

    1. Revelation 11:2
    - gentiles shall tread the holy city underfoot 42 months
    - the Temple shall be built - same 42 months

    Hello! the temple has to be rebuilt before the
    AC can commit the abomination of desolation (AOD).
    This 3½-year period has to be before mid-trib.

    2. Revealtion 11:3
    - the two witnesses shall prophesy 1260 days

    This must be before the mid-trib crises else
    the two witnesses will be resurrected during
    the Second Advent event at the end of the Tribulation
    Period. So the death & resurrection of the two
    witnesses is part of the mid-tribulation event.

    3. Revelation 12:6
    4. Revelation 12:14
    - Israel is protected in the wilderness
    by God for 3½-years

    Second half of the Tribulation Period.

    5. Revelation 13:5
    - AC given total authority for 42 months (3½-years)

    This strong implies a time when the AC does
    NOT have authority and which i believe to
    be the first 3½-years of the Tribualtion Period.
    During the first half of the
    Tribulation Period the AC is consoladating his
    area of leadership.
     
  19. npetreley

    npetreley
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    You totally lost me with your post. I couldn't tell which 3 1/2 years you were talking about when dealing with any of the scripture references -- the first 3 1/2 or the second 3 1/2 years in Daniel's 70th week, or any 3 1/2 years that you could place virtually anywhere in time -- so I couldn't follow any of your points.

    For example, it almost seems as if you place the Rev 11 quote about the two witnesses at the beginning of the 70th week, but I don't see any support for why that must be true. Revelation 11 doesn't seem to identify the placement of these 3 1/2 years at all -- for all we know, the events could start 6 months before the man of sin is revealed. Just because the alloted time is 42 months doesn't mean it has to be THE 42 months you have in mind.

    As for the Gentiles trampling on the holy city -- they're doing that now, and have been for 2000+ years (and several times before that). So that doesn't qualify any period -- no matter where you want to place it -- as a "tribulation" period.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Ah, a bit faster today, only 20 seconds
    to get a posting screen instead of 27 minues
    like last night [​IMG]


    Revelation 11:1-2 (nKJV):
    Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod.
    And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure
    the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
    2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple,
    and do not measure it,
    for it has been given to the Gentiles.
    And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.


    One measures to build,
    one does not measure where one is not to build.
    The Temple exclusive of the outer court has
    to exist before the AC can commit the abomination
    of desolation (AOD).

    Npetreley: "As for the Gentiles trampling on the holy city -- they're
    doing that now, and have been for 2000+ years
    (and several times before that). So that doesn't
    qualify any period -- no matter where you want
    to place it -- as a "tribulation" period."

    Actually this is exactly the error that
    peterists make. For the peterists we have
    been in "the tribulation" since 70AD.

    Here is the other reference to the Jews trampling
    over Jerusalem:

    Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
    24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
    and be led away captive into all nations.
    And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
    until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    The "times of the Gentiles" I like to call
    the "Church Age", that is the time during which
    the largely gentile (but including some Messianic
    Jews) born-again Christian elect saints church
    is gathered (entry is possible).
    I've spoken with several Messanic Jews and they
    beleive that when the last possible gentile
    who will ever get save, gets saved, then
    the pretribulatin rapture will take place.

    This time of the Gentiles (Church age) goes
    from the day of Pentacost to the pretribualtion
    rapture. The similar prophecy in Revelation 11:1-2
    takes place during a different dispensation:
    the Tribualtion Period.

    Npetreley: "You totally lost me with your post."

    Just what i thought, you are lost [​IMG]
    One can be spacialy disorientated (lost in space)
    One can be temporaly disorientated (lost in time)
    One can be spiritually disorientated (lost)

    After each number, i put which half
    of the tribulation period I believe that
    feature happens. You are welcome to disagree.
    My usual crowd of harrasers want to add all
    five of the 3.5 yeras together and make
    me saying the tribulation period is 17.5 years
    long ;)
     

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