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The Apostasy

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by HankD, Dec 1, 2004.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Apostasy.

    Particularly addressed in 2 Thessalonians

    NKJV 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

    Falling away = Grk. Apostasia.

    In context (NASB):

    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him,
    2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
    3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
    5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
    6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
    8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
    10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    11 And for this reason God will send upon them deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,
    12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

    What is “The Apostasy”?
    What is the scope of the Apostasy? Church, world, inhabited earth?
    Has it already happened?
    Is it a “work in progress”?
    Has it yet to happen?

    Not a trick question. I sincerely would like to know the various views and might change my own.

    Generally, my feeling is that it is a progressive and on-going event encompassing the whole world.


    HankD
     
    #1 HankD, Dec 1, 2004
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    1 John 4:3
    And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    I think that there has been a general falling away that has been occuring since the time of Christ, but there has always been a countering by godly Christians who have stood for the word of God and preached it uncompromised from the pulpits. But today we have less and less of the countering, and more and more falling away. However, in the context of the 2Thes falling away, I think he is referring to the culmination of this movement away from the truth, when antichrist stands in the temple and declares himself to be god, and people worship him instead of the one true god. That is the falling away that is being spoken of.
     
    #2 James_Newman, Dec 1, 2004
  3. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    The falling away began in the first century and and culminated in the fourth, when the outward, visible church became reconciled to the world. From that time the 'Man of Sin' took his place in the 'temple of God,' showing himself 'that he was God.'
    Dean
     
    #3 dean198, Dec 1, 2004
  4. pastorjeff

    pastorjeff New Member

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    If it culminated in the 4th century, then who is the one who restrains, and when was He taken away?
     
    #4 pastorjeff, Dec 1, 2004
  5. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    The restrainer was the fourth beast of Daniel, as the early church, the Waldenses, the Czech Brethren, the Anabaptists, the Reformers, the martyrs, the early Methodists, and the Baptists all taught until the rise nineteenth. It was the empire centred at Rome, and the emperor which represented it. That is why the churches of the second century prayed for the continuance of the empire, lest the beast appear - as Tertullian testifies.

    Dean
     
    #5 dean198, Dec 1, 2004
  6. pastorjeff

    pastorjeff New Member

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    What scripture was used as support for the 4th beast being that restrainer?
     
    #6 pastorjeff, Dec 1, 2004
  7. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I think preterism is probably playing a large part in this falling away too, pastorjeff. If you remove the expectation of a literal second coming, and a literal antichrist, everyone will be pleasantly surprised when 'god' stops by for a visit and demands to be worshipped.
     
    #7 James_Newman, Dec 1, 2004
  8. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    That was how 2 Thes. 2 was understood....'he that restrains' - 'what withholdeth' - it was understood that Paud did not mention the Roman power by name so as to avoid problems with the authorities, and reminded them of his oral teaching to them. I believe the book of Daniel was also referred to.
     
    #8 dean198, Dec 1, 2004
  9. pastorjeff

    pastorjeff New Member

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    There is referance to Dan. 11. need to do more study.
     
    #9 pastorjeff, Dec 1, 2004
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I have heard that the "falling away" could also be a "snatching away" as in a reference to the pre-trib rapture.

    Anyone else hear this preached?

    apostasia is from the words "away from" and "uprising/rebellion" and could fit that view. Kinda. With a shoehorn.
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Dec 1, 2004
  11. pastorjeff

    pastorjeff New Member

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    Dr. Bob,
    That is exactly what I've alway been taught. The HS is the restrainer in the passage and the taking away is the removale of the Church who is indwelt by the HS. You said you have heard this preached. What is your opinion on this?
     
    #11 pastorjeff, Dec 1, 2004
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I have trouble taking a word like "apostasis" which is from Classical Greek to Koine used almost exclusively (from what I've uncovered) in the idea of a more passive "drifting" to a very active "catching" away.

    While I will not second guess the Spirit, there ARE better, clearer words to refer to the "parousia" than this.

    But I'm not conclusive on any, and will continue to study (and look foward to the RAPTURE, not the anti-christ)
     
    #12 Dr. Bob, Dec 1, 2004
  13. pastorjeff

    pastorjeff New Member

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    But the parousia would be the culmination of the drift, the point in time when the "restrainer" is removed. It would not have to stretch a word, just the period of time before the removal.
     
    #13 pastorjeff, Dec 1, 2004
  14. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    It can't be the rapture or the Holy Spirit - Paul is telling them what must take place before 'the coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering together unto him.'
     
    #14 dean198, Dec 1, 2004
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but I had forgotten it because I had dismissed it as unlikely.
    The word is used in this form in one more place:

    Acts 21:21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

    While we also are not looking for the antichrist, one of our Adult Sunday School classes is studying 2 Thessalonians and we have bogged down a bit here in Chapter 2.

    BTW, we also noted that the word "antichrist" is not used in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 and indeed not by Paul at all.

    It is used only 4 times, all in the epistles of John.

    The assumption is that the antichrist and the "man of sin" are synonymous. Somewhere in that assumption
    I would use the word "perhaps" or maybe even "probably".

    The variety of views is very interesting, I hope this can be continued without too much friction.

    HankD
     
    #15 HankD, Dec 1, 2004
  16. tfisher1

    tfisher1 New Member

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    I would have a really hard time seeing that the "restrainer" in verse 6 is the Holy Spirit... no Bible version I can find has "HE" or "HIM" capitalized in reference to diety.. and some version change it completely to "what" restrains instead of "him" or "he"...

    Interesting topic though... I too am torn on the whole rapture issue and have been studying all viewpoints... pre/post/amill/ etc... I will take the easy way out and state "pan" for now, although I tend to lean towards post trib.

    I believe the apostasy may be taking place right now. Islam and other non-christian religions seem to be growing rapidly.. specifically islam.
    One can even look at our own country and think that we're moving farther and farther way from christian principle's and values.

    Btw, is there any scripture that shows one of the Holy Spirit's attributes as being a restrainer, or one that hold's something back?

    Todd
     
    #16 tfisher1, Dec 1, 2004
  17. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    on the rapture issue, all i would say is this - where is there any indication that the rapture is a separate event from the second coming, rather than an actual part of the second coming?
     
    #17 dean198, Dec 1, 2004
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Start a new thread, dean198, on the rapture being a separate event from the Revelation of Jesus ~ Sure many will join in.

    But we'll keep to subject here.
     
    #18 Dr. Bob, Dec 1, 2004
  19. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    The falling away is a departure from Pauline teaching, which is "prophesied" by Paul. (2 Thess.2:15) He was a PREACHER as Solomon and Noah bearing prophetic implication. (2 Tim.1) Apostasy was historical, which he witnessed (2 Tim.1-2), and is perennial (See his admonition in 2 Tim.4), which AGAIN restates the PROPHETICAL ASPECT. (the last days)

    Teach no other doctrine. (1 Tim.1) It will save you. (1 Tim.4) It is from the Lord Jesus THROUGH Paul. (1 Tim.6) It was SOUND DOCTRINE. (2 Tim.1) Timothy FULLY knew it. (2 Tim.3)

    The falling away is the OVERTHROW of Pauline dispensationalism among members of the body of Christ, which is being witnessed in this day among "fundamentalists, conservatives, evangelicals, blah, blah, blah, etc".

    That tells me one thing. The gathering is IMMINENT.
     
    #19 carlaimpinge, Dec 1, 2004
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Apostasy comes first then in verse 3-4 the "man of sin" or the man of lawlessness (NASB) is revealed.

    4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    What and where is the "temple of God"?

    Is Paul assuming the Temple in Jerusalem which hadn't yet been destroyed at the writing of this epistle?

    The Solomonic Temple to be rebuilt?

    Or something else to be recognized when it happens?

    Or something else altogether?

    Whatever the answer, apparently he assumed the Thessalonians would know what he meant.


    HankD
     
    #20 HankD, Dec 1, 2004
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