The Apostle Paul's referenes to Holy Spirit baptism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Olivencia, Mar 29, 2009.

  1. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    1. Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12 are all referenes to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This is the "one baptism" that Ephesians 4:5 speaks of - water baptism is simply its picture.
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    2. Some may claim that there are no more occurrences of people being baptized with the Holy Spirit. That is it happened only two times, the first being at Pentecost (Acts 2:4 cf. Acts 1:5) and the send and final with the Gentiles (Acts 11:16). This is a false teaching. For accoring to Acts 10:45 and Acts 11:16 if one has the Holy Spirit "poured" (ekxew) on them it is the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).
    pouring (Acts 10:45) = baptism (Acts 11:16).
    Paul tells us in Titus 3:6 that all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "poured" (ekxew) on them. Thus since all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit poured on them then it necessitates that Paul is asserting that all who are Christians have been baptized with the the Holy Spirit. This baptism with the Holy Spirit is paramount to the Apostle Paul.
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    3. Concerning Romans 6:3 the result of "baptism" allows the Christian to now "walk in the newness of life" (Romans 6:4) which means the same things as to "serve in the newness of the Spirit" (Romans 7:6).
    walk = serve
    Spirit = life
    This "newness of life/newness of the Spirit" is the result of being baptized with the "Spirit of life" (Romans 8:2) because "the Spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthians 3:6).
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    4. Regarding the "baptism" mentioned in Galatians 3:27 the context once again demonstrates that Paul is referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This baptism makes one an heir of Abraham according to "the promise" (Galatians 3:29) and the promise are for those who "receive" the Spirit (Galatians 3:14). The Gentiles "received" the Spirit (Acts 10:47) before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48).
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    5. Colossians 2:12 also refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Those who have undergone this baptism (Colossians 2:12) are the same one's that have experienced "the circumcision of Christ" (Colossians 2:11). Those who are of the circumcised "worship God in the Spirit" (Philippians 3:3). The Gentiles were worshiping God in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48). Thus they already received the circumcision of Christ that Colossians 2:11 speaks of before their water baptism. The baptism then in Colossians 2:12 refers to being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
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    6. The "one baptism" then that Paul writes about in Ephesians 4:5 refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Some counter that it reads, "one baptism" and if Holy Spirit baptism is now taking place and water baptism is also occurring then that means there are two baptisms when Paul wrote "one baptism". This is easily answered in that there is only one baptism that places a person into the one body. This baptism being the baptism with the Holy Spirit. If one insists that it means "only one baptism" then they have a problem for the Apostle John still had a baptism to undergo even after Ephesians 4:5 was written (Mark 10:38). This baptism refers to his death which had not yet taken place when Ephesians was written.
     
  2. JSM17

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    -------------------------

    I have tried to see it this way but I find it very difficult to come to this conclusion, the new birth is one new birth with two elements, water and Spirit. I believe that there is one baptism that keeps the unity of the Spirit.

    I believe that we are baptized with the Holy Spirit when we are made Sons Heirs to the promise of Abraham. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is given with the same "measure of Power" to man today and the signs do not accompany the out pouring any longer.
    I agree with Titus 3:6 as well.


    Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in “something,” and a “being raised” from the same substance.
    If the “Spirit” is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently “raised from” the Spirit. This would imply further that the new convert would not have the Spirit, and therefore, would not belong to the Lord (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6).


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    Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba! Father!"
    NASU


    You must first become a son, how does Paul tell us we become a son?

    Gal 3:26-27

    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    NASU


    How can you receive the baptism of the H.S. to be made a son when you receive the Spirit because you are a son?

    The promise is to those who are sons not, the promise is the H.S. one must be a son first according to Gal.


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    Again if we are buried into His death in the Holy Spirit, then we are raise up out of death and out of the H.S. to a new life.

    One baptism that keeps the unity of the Spirit again I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit I also believe that when we are water baptized for the forgiveness of Sins Acts 2:38 We are given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hence being born of water and Spirit John 3:5; Titus 3:5

    Questions for you:

    1.In 1 Peter 3:21 is not water directly associated with the word baptism?

    2. Does Ananias tell Paul to be Spirit baptized in Acts22:16?

    3. What bout the Great Commission and the other accounts of the G.C. such as Mark 16:16?

    4. Did Christ command that we go and baptize people with the H.S.?

    5. Does Acts 2:38 refer to Holy Spirit or water baptism?

    6.Was John's baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sins?

    7. Does acts 16:15 refer to water or H.S. baptism?

    8. Does Acts 19:1-7 refer to Water or H.S

    Acts 19:2-6
    2 He said to them, " Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

    3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, " Into John's baptism."

    4 Paul said, " John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
    NASU

    I see a direct connection with Paul's questions and the idea that believe here encompasses baptism into Jesus where we receive the H.S. Paul asked into what then were to baptized? Then they are baptized, were they baptized into water or just the H.S?


    I may view things different then most on this forum, I understand that, but I am an honest man who considers the scripture, If do not agree with some on this forum I am concidered not honest and riding my hobby horse of doctrine from the COC. I do not hold the same views as everyone in the COC or in any baptist church or any other group of people. I change when I see the word of God teaching me something that I have wrong and it is OK for someone to tell me I am wrong, but they should respect the man that has taken a very large chunk of time to find himself approved through the word of God. So when you come to this post and are ready to ripp me up, reconsider that I am being honest about what I believe and take kindly to correction that is done in a Spirit to which CHRIST has told you to conduct yourself and I will do the same.
    I have not arrived yet have any of you?
     
  3. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    1. The Holy Spirit baptizes into Christ.
    2. Nothing you have written refutes anything that I posted concerning Romans 6:3 and Colossians 2:12. You did not at all address walking in the newness of life and walking in the newness of the Spirit (Romans 6) nor did you address those who are of the circumcision worship God in the Spirit (Colossians 2 and Philippians 3).
    3. You cited Galatians 4:6 in your comments concerning Galatianss 3:27 of course without addressing the fact that those who are heirs have received the Spirit - and that is exactly what took place with the Gentiles BEFORE they were water baptized (Acts 10:47, 48).
    You assert that one is a son first and then they receive the Holy Spirit. That is error. Romans 8:9 and 1 John 4:13 teach that if one has the Spirit they are saved and if one does not have the Spirit they are lost. In terms of Galatians 4:6 several Greek authors say the word "because" (hoti) can have another meaning.
    a. Thayer says one of the meanings of hoti is -> the reason why anything is said to be or to be done, because, since, for that, for (hoti, page 459).
    b. Vine: Hoti, here rendered "because", may be taken in one or other of two senses, either, a. as indicating the reason why God had given His Spirit to them, or, b, as indicating the proof of their sonship. That the latter is the Apostle's meaning is evident from two considerations. First, because the impartation of the Spirit and the introduction into sonship are alike said to be the immediate consequence of believing on Christ; see notes at 3.2, 3. And, second, because this is the meaning of Rom. 8:14, where the thought is expanded into "the Spirit Himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God", v.16. A further consideration, confirmatory of this exegesis of the Apostle's words, is that his immediate purpose was not to instruct them concerning the gift and operation of the Holy Spirit, but to convince them that they were the sons of God. What better proof could be adduced than this, that they themselves had received the Spirit and experienced His power? Hoti is frequently = 'that', and there is here probably an instance of the figure of speech called brachylogy, or condensation, in which case the ellipsis may be supplied from 3.11 above, 'and that ye are sons is evident, for God sent forth', etc. (The Epistle to the Galatians, C.F. Hogg and W.E. Vine, page 190 and 191).
    c. Brown: When this Spirit takes up his dwelling in the heart, man is no longer a slave to sin, but a son and heir to God (Gal. 4:6f) (NIDNTT 2:183, Heart).

    --> According to your interpretation of Galatians 4:6 you believe that one can be saved without having the Holy Spirit. Not only does this contradict Romans 8:9 and 1 John 4:13 but many citations from the Greek lexicons prove this belief of yours wrong.
    The Bible teaches that: In the Spirit = In Christ while not to have the Spirit = unsaved
    1. Brown: Phrases such as en kyriw, en pneumati, en heni swmati, en pistei and en aletheia indicate states which Christians live and act (NIDNTT 3:1191, Appendix "en").
    1. Brown: Christians are characterized by having, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God (1 Cor. 2:12), for the natural man does not understand anything that comes from the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14f.) (NIDNTT 2:75, God).
    2. Danker: All those who belong to God possess or receive this spirit and hence have a share in God's life. This spirit also serves to distinguish Christians fr. all unbelievers (pneuma, page 834).
    2. Danker: Concerning the apostle Paul, "His conviction (s. 5 below) that the Christian possesses the (divine) pneuma and thus is different fr. all other people, leads him to choose this word in preference to others, in order to characterize a believers inner being gener. hw latreuw en tw pn. mou Ro 1:9" (pneuma, page 833).
    3. Kittel: Citing 1 Corinthians 2:14, Here again psuxikos means neutrally the natural man who lives without the eschatoloical gift of the pneuma and who thus belongs to the world (v.12) and not to God (v.10) (TDNT 9:663, psuxikos).
    3. Kittel: Sometimes Paul can use theos, kurios and pneuma together because their encounter with the believer is one and the same event (TDNT 6:434, pneuma).
    3. Kittel: Not to have the pneuma of God is to be controlled by the pneuma tou kosmou (TDNT 6:437, pneuma).

    And I'd like to know if you believe the Gentiles were worshipping God in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48)?

    Please do not fragment the thread with all your questions. If you have a concern start a thread elsewhere.

    Thank you
     
    #3 Olivencia, Mar 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2009
  4. JSM17

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    So is this one of your rules, what do you mean by fragment the thread, can I not ask questions? If I did not respond you would be talking to yourself.
     
  5. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    Please address the passages and arguments I put forth. You refuse to and then run off on all these rabbit trails all the while claiming that you are willing to investigate what the Bible says.

    OK. Then I look forward to your answers after your investigation of them.

    1. Were the Gentiles worshipping God in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48)?

    2. Have all Christians been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

    3. Does the Spirit give life (2 Corinthians 3:6)?

    4. If one has received the Spirit are they an heir of Abraham (Galatians 3:14; 3:29)?

    5. If one is serving in the newness of the Spirit are they also walking in the newness of life (Romans)?

    6. Did John still have to undergo his baptism (in reference to his death) after Ephesians 4:5 was originally written?

    Thank you
     
  6. TCGreek

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    It's not necessary to argue for Spirit-baptism in all those texts.

    Solid evangelical scholars are on both sides of the fence on the issue, without surrendering to baptismal water regeneration.

    The 7 ones of Eph. 4:4-6 must be interpreted in light of the context of Eph. 2-4, of the Jews and Gentiles relation in the church.

    So Paul is saying,

    Not one Hope for the Jews, but another for the Gentiles. No, there's just one Hope who both groups, and so on...
     
  7. JSM17

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    1. They certainly were magnifying God, I do not know if that was worship or not, some translations say that the were exalting God.
    2.Yes all Christians have been baptized with the HS.
    3.Yes the Spirit gives life.
    4.Yes Galatians 4:6 says that because you are sons of God sent forth His Spirit.
    5. Yes
    6. Not sure what your asking on this one.
     
  8. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    #2. You wrote that all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. I agree.
    --> Were the Gentiles baptized with the Holy Spirit before their water baptism?
    -------------------------------------------------------
    #4 You wrote that Galatians 4:6 says that because you are sons of (sic) God sent forth His Spirit.
    --> Since the Gentiles already possessed the Holy Spirit before their water baptism doesn't that prove that they were already sons before their water baptism?

    Thank you

    Olivencia
     
  9. JSM17

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    I believe that is correct.

    I would say yes as well.

    My only issue is that Galatians shows that one receives the Promise of the H.S. because they are sons.

    Other passages show the H.S. being received at different times.

    Even Acts 2:38 shows this in a different sequence than Acts 10.

    I am trying to harmonize the conversion accounts and they seem to different so which one applies today?
     
  10. Olivencia

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    1. Romans 8:9 and 1 John 4:13 are clear that if one has the Holy Spirit they are saved.
    2. I agree that Acts 2:38 is in a different sequence. The same would hold true for Acts 8:17 and Acts 19:6. Acts 2:38 refers only to the Jews of this time period so it does not apply to us today. Not once do we ever see a clear cut case of any Gentile being told to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins. In regards to Acts 8:17 and Acts 19:6 there are no living Apostles today to impart the Spirit through the imposition of their hands.
    3. What applies to us today in regards to when the Holy Spirit is received is what took place in Acts 10 with the Gentiles.
     
  11. Darron Steele

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    If we follow translations into Portuguese, there is no difference in sequence.

    I present one translation: Acts 2:38b "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados; e recebereis o dom do Espírito Santo" (VRA).

    We repent for the remission of sins. Jesus Christ commanded this to be taught: Luke 24:47 has “repentance for |remission of sins should be preached in his name” (NASB|KJV). In Acts 2:38, the obligation to be baptized in His Name is inserted, but it is still "repentance for remission of sins" nonetheless. Once "repentance for the remission of sins" occurs, we receive the Holy Spirit.

    As for how much to credence to grant the event of Acts 10 at Cornelius's home, keep in mind that the event was gone over THREE times in Acts: in Acts 10, in Acts 11, and in Acts 15. In the latter, a major church decision was made on the basis of it.

    If the New Testament-era church made a major decision due to events of Acts 10, I think we ought to give it the same weight.
     
    #11 Darron Steele, Mar 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2009
  12. JSM17

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    Acts 2:38

    38 Pétros dé prós autoús Metanoeésate feesín kaí baptistheétoo hékastos humoón epí toó onómati Ieesoú Christoú eis áfesin toón hamartioón humoón kaí leémpsesthe teén dooreán toú Hagíou Pneúmatos

    Well the Greek says that we are baptized for the remission of sins.
     
  13. Darron Steele

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    From the translation I quoted, evidently not so.

    I believe that the translation is accurate to what the Greek has.
     
  14. JSM17

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    batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados

    Yes, this says that we are baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

    God has allowed us to have it in english in so many translations, and they all say the same thing.
     
  15. Darron Steele

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    Do you know Portuguese -- or did you just put it into a translation program? It looks like you just did the latter.

    Fact is, other languages do not share English's grammatical rules, and word-by-word renderings do not always work. Greek and Portuguese do not share English's grammatical rules.

    You cut off some very important parts of this sentence, cutting even part of the directive to be baptized, and starting mid-sentence only at what was of interest to you. The relevant part of Acts 2:38 in its entirety is "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados; e recebereis o dom do Espírito Santo" (VRA).

    The grammar places emphasis on the command to repent. The obligatory subjunctive is used for the directive to be baptized, and is put within an appositive clause bound within two commas. The grammar is most naturally understood as `Repent for the remission of sins.' As the Portuguese reflects, Peter did utilize the nature of Greek to insert an obligation to be baptized within the command to `Repent for the remission of sins' but the command was exactly that nonetheless.

    You see, reference works about the Greek here are consistent with what the Portuguese shows in translation. I just think it is a whole lot more interesting to see what those works report in actual Bible translation, as is the case in Portuguese translations.

    Jesus Christ ordained that “repentance for |remission of sins should be preached in his name” (NASB|KJV) at Luke 24:47. I do not believe Peter disobeyed Him.
     
    #15 Darron Steele, Apr 1, 2009
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  16. TCGreek

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    So this whole matter surrounds the translation of the Greek preposition eis, whether result or purpose.

    1. Purpose - "in order to obtain the forgiveness of sins."

    2. Result - "on the basis of/ in view of the forgiveness of sins."

    Keep in mind that eis has both meanings.

    According to Matthew 12:41: the people of Ninevah repented at/in view of, the preaching of Jonah.

    Eis rendered "at"/"in view of."

    Some have taken the latter use of eis at Acts 2:28.

    But Acts 2:38 was hardly intended to build a theology of salvation on.
     
  17. Darron Steele

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    Up to now, that word has not been involved.

    This is about the verb tenses and nature of the grammar in the Greek before that word, and how they are best understood.
     
    #17 Darron Steele, Apr 1, 2009
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  18. JSM17

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    Notice how "repent" (metanoésate) and "be baptized" (baptisthéto) are joined by the conjunction kaì. Some argue that baptism is more important than repentance; some contend repentance is more necessary than baptism. Some say baptism only (not baptism and repentance) is for the remission of sins. All these views are grammatically incorrect.

    Remember that kaì is a coordinating conjunction that joins items or elements of equal grammatical importance.

    Hence, baptism when preceded by repentance is for the remission of sins Some play down "be baptized" based on the passive voice element. The full grammatical information regarding the posture of baptisthéto is third person, singular, aorist tense 1, imperative mood, and passive voice.

    A literal translation would be "get yourself baptized" (the subject is passive and being acted upon). However, how does this play down baptism? One repents for oneself; however, one is baptized by another.
     
  19. Darron Steele

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    With two different Greek verb tenses -- for a reason.

    Acts 2:38b "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados; e recebereis o dom do Espírito Santo" (VRA). Similarly to the Greek, the stronger verb tense is on the command to repent, and another verb tense is used in the tangential clause directing converts to be baptized.

    Those verb tenses are translated with different verb tenses into Portuguese. The emphasis of the verb tenses in each -- repent. We repent for the remission of sins.

    Jesus Christ ordained that “repentance for |remission of sins should be preached in his name” (NASB|KJV) at Luke 24:47. Is it your position that Peter disobeyed Jesus Christ at Acts 2:38? It is hard to imagine you thinking so, but it seems a necessary implication of your view.

    I assure you that it is not my position. I believe that Peter preached EXACTLY what Jesus Christ ordained.
     
    #19 Darron Steele, Apr 1, 2009
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  20. JSM17

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    Luke 24:47

    47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations,
    NKJV


    DS Wrote
    It does not say repentance for remission of sins, that is you forcing your idea, the plain language says repentance AND remission of sins.

    Luke 24:47 is one of two other accounts of the great commission, have you ever looked at the harmony of the Gospels. Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15, 16, Luke 24:47, these are all accounts of Jesus instructing them about the "Great Commission", all this began on the day of pentecost just as how it set up with the summation of scriptures.
     

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