The Apostles and the forgiving of sin.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Adonia, May 8, 2016.

  1. Adonia

    Adonia
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    My good friend DHK posted this a previous thread. "Only God can forgive sins--not the apostles, not any man; only God (Mark 2:7).
    The apostles had no power to forgive sins, but their God-given message, the gospel would forgive all the sins of those that believed. Only in that way would sins be forgiven. Today, believers have the same power--forgiveness of sins comes through the gospel".

    So I went to the Scriptures to find the truth and this is what I found John 20 21-23. "21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven". Now that sounds pretty cut and dried to me.

    This is not to deny the reality that any forgiveness is done in the name of Jesus Christ Our Lord, with each Apostle acting "in the person of Christ" (as our clergy does today). And by the way, this is where the orthodox faith traditions get the idea of confession, or reconciliation if you will, a sacrament derived directly from the Holy Scriptures.
     
    #1 Adonia, May 8, 2016
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  2. steaver

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    OK, so let's apply this belief to Christians around the world today and answer a question. If a Christian sins and does not go to a clergy to confess, but prays directly to Jesus Christ instead asking forgiveness, will this person receive the forgiveness of the sin?
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    When Peter sinned so grievously by denying the Lord three times, to which apostle did he go to receive forgiveness?

    Sins can only be forgiven when one trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. 'Therefore, let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins' (Acts 13:38). In believing on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, a Christian has both the forgiveness of sins and a perfect standing with God credited to him. 'In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of grace' (Eph. 1:7). Thus the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). When one does sin after salvation it is a relationship problem with the Father, to be resolved directly by confessing our sins to Him. 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness' (1 John 1:9). As a nation of priests (1 Peter 2:9), we have direct access to the Father and have no need of any man-made priest. If we feel the need to confess sin to someone, we may do so to one another (James 5:16).
     
    #3 Martin Marprelate, May 8, 2016
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  4. Adonia

    Adonia
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    Peter went right to Jesus as he was still here and had not risen up into heaven yet, but since the other Apostles had the forgiving power, he could have gone to one of his fellow disciples. But the fact is, not everything is written down in the bible, not every utterance of Jesus, nor of the Apostles.

    You then cite James 5:16. So I ask you, me confessing my sins to a priest is not "confessing to one another"?
     
  5. steaver

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    OK, so let's apply this belief to Christians around the world today and answer a question. If a Christian sins and does not go to a clergy to confess, but prays directly to Jesus Christ instead asking forgiveness, will this person receive the forgiveness of the sin?
     
  6. utilyan

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    This belief is held most likely held by you already if we get picky with the confusing technicalities and vocabulary.

    Keep in mind Jesus Christ is known to forgive a person as they commit the sin.

    Jesus Christ is CLERGY, High Priest in the church. Either way your going to clergy.

    You might see the word hypostatic union thrown around.

    Don't separate Jesus from church or clergy on account I say its catholic. In your church Jesus is high priest. Your clergy and church is part of a body that Christ is a part of and head.

    You can go over everyone's head to Jesus for forgiveness. Good case Jesus might expect of you to go over his own head too.

    Example:
    Matthew 15
    25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

    Notice she didn't say well Jesus said no, shrug her shoulders and went away crying. Jesus wanted her to fight, go over his head, There is a high principle being pointed at that shows a great faith.


    We have power to forgive:
    Matthew 6
    14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


    Keep in mind anytime I sin, do wrong, I offend God anything that offends God automatically is a sin against you too (if God actually means anything to you, I'm pretty sure he does). When I sin somewhere in there is an offense to God and I owe YOU an apology for it.

    I rather have someone insult me then God



    Our sin isn't a total private matter, God sees everything




    Its hard to see it since we Christians are splintered but we are suppose to be together. I need your prayers. I sin, I could use every bit of prayer you can spare. Just like you can pray to heal a broke leg, You can pray to heal a broke soul.


    James 5
    13Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
    19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    If you read John 21, it was the Lord Jesus who went to Peter, not the other way round. It is He who has the power to forgive sins, and if you are saved He has already forgiven you.

    Your church has no right to command you to confess to a 'priest' and the 'priest' has no authority to pronounce your sins forgiven, nor to proscribe penances to you. 'If the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed.'

    Rome states, 'Priests have received from God a power that he has given neither to angels nor to archangels.....God above confirms what priests do here below. Were there no forgiveness in the Church [of Rome] there would be no hope of life to come or eternal liberation. [Catechism, Para. 1424]

    This is blasphemy. The forgiveness of sins is God's prerogative, and His alone. 'I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins' (Isaiah 43:25).
     
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  8. DHK

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    [/QUOTE]
    We even teach the children the same truths:

    1 Stop! and let me tell you
    what the Lord has done for me.
    Stop! and let me tell you
    what the Lord has done for me.
    He forgave my sin and he saved my soul;
    he cleansed my heart and he made me whole.

    Stop! and let me tell you
    what the Lord has done for me.

    Only Jesus could do that. No priest, no human can forgive your sin, save your soul, cleanse your heart and make you whole. Only Christ has the power to do that.

    Forgiveness is one thing only Jesus can do. When I trusted him he forgave all my sin: past, present and future.
    Rom.8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
    Think of that: no condemnation--none! God looks upon me and sees "no condemnation. I should write this in the purgatory thread, for that is why there is no purgatory. There is no condemnation. The only thing that God sees is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I stand in His righteousness perfectly holy. I, therefore, do not need to go to a priest.

    In fact I am a priest before God.
    Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    --Each believer in Christ is a priest, and collectively we make up a holy priesthood. Therefore I have no need of a human priest. He can't help; he is useless. All my sins are forgiven.

    Again, as we teach children:
    Gone, gone, gone, gone
    Yes my sins are gone,
    Now my soul is free
    And in my heart’s a song;
    Buried in the deepest sea
    Yes, that’s good enough for me–
    I shall live eternally

    Praise God!
    My sins are G-O-N-E gone!

    It is great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that one's sins are gone forever. And if they are, what need is there of a priest?

    If there is a need to confess daily sin that doesn't condemn, then the Bible says:
    Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    --I am a priest before God, and at any time I can appear before my Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. Wonderful isn't it?

    Then the author of Hebrews says:
    Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    --I have the privilege of coming right before His throne of grace. What a great privilege that is! And why do I need a human priest again??
    It is God that forgives sins. And I don't even have to make an appointment, and his line is never busy. Great isn't it?
     
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  9. steaver

    steaver
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    Ok, then you agree a Christian has no need to go to a Catholic father to ask for forgiveness. One only needs to pray to Jesus Christ, our High Priest.
     
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  10. Sapper Woody

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    If we are to take that passage literally, what happens when one person refuses to forgive a sin, but another forgives? Does God break His word to one, and honor His word to another?

    Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk
     
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  11. utilyan

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    I believe God looks after you steaver, He is your father and wants what is best for you.


    You may most definitely pray to Jesus Christ. If Christ appears before you and says you are forgiven or absolved of your sins. Your done.

    Even in situation like that he may tell you to go to a priest. Why? Its his choice.

    This could happen, sincerely, not in a "oh I just know he forgives me" or some mystical mumbo jumbo your just lying to yourself.

    I'm gonna give bit of my perspective.

    John 20
    22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

    Its not like Jesus doesn't have access to something stronger then the internet we are not here to dictate the method Christ chooses.


    Matthew 9
    2And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” 4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? 5“Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he got up and went home. 8But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

    Jesus Christ is our exemplar of behavior. Notice the end does it say they glorified God who had given such authority to Jesus? It says MEN. The church was forgiving sins.

    As the Father sent Jesus he sends you. Did the Father give Jesus half authority?


    Of course if you don't believe a particular church we are not going to believe their clergy has authority.

    But Jesus started a true church and gave men true authority. I'm just giving you my perspective.


    When we talk about church we are talking about a body in unity with Jesus. Its not a bunch of groups putting in a spiritual application to be the True Church. Trying to mimic ideas of scripture like putting on a costume of being the church.

    The church was the church before any scripture was even written. It was straight up started by Christ.


    He told them to forgive sins. He could have said tell sinners to call me up and ill forgive them.

    The church his disciples and followers is not a divided thing. Its unity.


    If you don't believe there is a perfect unity with your church and Christ, If Jesus didn't start it, I throw it away .


    Actual faith isn't easy. We can't murmur and replace better methods and efficiency apart from what Christ set forth.

    If Jesus wants you to rub your belly and pat your head, that's the way it is.


    Baptism....... Why can't I get one done with beer?


    John 3
    12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


    Having to go to clergy for forgiveness its like having to go to water for baptism.

    Its still Jesus forgiving sins, ON HIS TERMS rather then your own terms.

    Baptism on my terms is BEER. Forgiveness of my sins on my terms is I write God an "IOU" on paper which I plan to hand Jesus since he paid it off.


    Now if your not Catholic I believe God forgives you, If you are sincere and honest it is what it is.
     
  12. Adonia

    Adonia
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    We even teach the children the same truths:

    1 Stop! and let me tell you
    what the Lord has done for me.
    Stop! and let me tell you
    what the Lord has done for me.
    He forgave my sin and he saved my soul;
    he cleansed my heart and he made me whole.

    Stop! and let me tell you
    what the Lord has done for me.

    Only Jesus could do that. No priest, no human can forgive your sin, save your soul, cleanse your heart and make you whole. Only Christ has the power to do that.

    Forgiveness is one thing only Jesus can do. When I trusted him he forgave all my sin: past, present and future.
    Rom.8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
    Think of that: no condemnation--none! God looks upon me and sees "no condemnation. I should write this in the purgatory thread, for that is why there is no purgatory. There is no condemnation. The only thing that God sees is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I stand in His righteousness perfectly holy. I, therefore, do not need to go to a priest.

    In fact I am a priest before God.
    Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    --Each believer in Christ is a priest, and collectively we make up a holy priesthood. Therefore I have no need of a human priest. He can't help; he is useless. All my sins are forgiven.

    Again, as we teach children:
    Gone, gone, gone, gone
    Yes my sins are gone,
    Now my soul is free
    And in my heart’s a song;
    Buried in the deepest sea
    Yes, that’s good enough for me–
    I shall live eternally

    Praise God!
    My sins are G-O-N-E gone!

    It is great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that one's sins are gone forever. And if they are, what need is there of a priest?

    If there is a need to confess daily sin that doesn't condemn, then the Bible says:
    Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    --I am a priest before God, and at any time I can appear before my Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. Wonderful isn't it?

    Then the author of Hebrews says:
    Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    --I have the privilege of coming right before His throne of grace. What a great privilege that is! And why do I need a human priest again??
    It is God that forgives sins. And I don't even have to make an appointment, and his line is never busy. Great isn't it?[/QUOTE]

    I see, so we just ignore a particular Scripture verse when it doesn't conform to our particular doctrine. YOU said that "No man", "no Apostle" can forgive sins, contrary to what Jesus said per the Scriptures. You were wrong, can't you admit it?
     
  13. Adonia

    Adonia
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    For the non-orthodox believing Christian, you have to get forgiveness for your sins at some point, so since your faith tradion has no sacrament of reconciliation, I gues the Lord who is most merciful will forgive you too.
     
  14. steaver

    steaver
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    By what authority do you decide Christ must appear before me in order to absolve my sins?

    I do not follow any mystical mumbo jumbo but I do trust in the Word of God when God tells me...

    1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Psalm 32:5 - "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah."


    I know my sins are forgiven because God says so in His Word. When you go to a priest and confess how do you know for sure your sins are absolved? How do you know the priest you confessed to is even a Christian? Look at how many priest are evil and have abused children, do you think these priest have truly been born-again saved? Do you think they have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in themselves? Why would I go to a priest or a non-Catholic pastor for that matter and trust that my sins have been properly confessed to God knowing how many false priest and false pastors there are in this world? If I were you I would definitely not rest my future purgatory time on what I confessed to a man on earth claiming to be a priest of Jesus Christ.

    Tell me, how do you know the priest you are confessing to and who is claiming to forgive you on behalf of God is really not an faker?

    Matt 18 - "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

    Certainly you do not believe these child abusers are truly saved Christians. I should hope not. But many of Catholics have confessed their sins to them and have walked away thinking their sins have been forgiven when in reality they have confessed their sins to satan. So will I trust in confessing my sins to a priest or a pastor, I think not! I will trust what God's Word tells me and I will pray directly to my High Priest in Heaven who is always listening to the prayers of His true children.

    1 Ti 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

    1 John 2:1 - "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

    Heb 7:25 - "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."


    Do you see how it is in the Scriptures, the Word of God, I place my trust and understanding in tese matters, not traditions of men? Otherwise, I could easily be confessing my sins to a non-believer, an advocate for the devil himself. No thank you! I will pray only to Jesus Christ and believe Him when He says my prayers are heard and my sins are forgiven me. You can go on taking you chances, I would even warn you and hope that you can see that trusting in a priest or pastor here on earth is to your own folly.
     
  15. steaver

    steaver
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    Do you see how your RCC tradition has no real meaning? It is all over the place, it has no guidance, it has abandoned the Word of God. It has become a "oh well, it is true for us Catholics, but everyone else is ok to follow something else". You have no Truth verses error. This is why you believe a "good" Muslim or a "good" Jew is also A-Ok with God and will be saved regardless of the Scripture which states the exact opposite. It is a shame that you do not have any conviction of what is right and what is wrong in God's eyes and go about to establish your own righteousness.
     
  16. DHK

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    As you must have seen in my lengthy post (at least compared to this one) we take the meaning of scripture from the totality of what it says, and not just from what verse. That is what you do. You pit one verse against the rest of the Bible. Hardly a case for good hermeneutics.

    Doing things your way I could take one isolated passage, like Judges 21:20-24, and say that it is the will of God to tell the young men in the church to go to a nearby dance, rush in and kidnap the girl that he wishes to marry, then take her home for his wife. That is your way of interpreting scripture. After all you don't want "ignore a particular scripture passage when it doesn't conform to your particular doctrine," as you said, correct??
    Pure foolishness!

    Go to the passage and find out what it says, and what it means. It obviously contradicts the rest of scripture. So it has a different meaning then you are giving it. It is your interpretation that is wrong, not the Bible. You have the Bible contradicting itself, but the Bible is not wrong, you are.
     
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  17. utilyan

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    That is not trusting the scriptures because the scriptures state Jesus placed authority on men God breathed with the holy spirit.

    You said look how many priests are abusers and evil. Give me a number, just how many abusers are there?
    This accusatory spirit of vilifying others is the Devil's bread and butter. They don't call him accuser for no reason, it is not our place to judge others.

    Let me tell you about an abuser named Paul who murdered Christians was unrepentant yet God in his mercy chose to intervene.

    1 timothy 1
    12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;



    We see Jesus Christ recognize the official authority of the Pharisees in Moses' seat despite their acting like children of the devil rather then of Abraham.


    The entire God-breathe Jewish faith of Christ was still correct despite corrupt leadership.

    If Catholic teaching is to abuse people. Then you have a case.

    We can pull up statistics http://www.statista.com/statistics/234653/religious-affiliation-of-us-prisoners/
    Majority of folks in prison are your people.......... Does that mean hey maybe you should let us handle it so you guys can quit churning out criminals?

    So your religion teaches people to be criminals? This would be unfair of me. We both know there is a correct method and behavior to follow.

    The numbers don't mean anything. If one of your folks abuse a child won't even make 2 seconds on national TV. A priest is always headlines.



    If your of the belief that Catholics are not that authority the bible claims it created, that is ok, that flies.
    What doesn't fly is the idea there is no church or people out there with the authority to forgive sins. Because your simply saying scripture is a lie.

    Catholics seem to act like Jesus Christ put them in charge. I could see why you would conclude that is silly. But fact remains Jesus put a group of folks in charge with binding and loosing.


    What is more silly is you got thousands on thousands who say they don't bind or loose and just one group with the audacity to say they do that was the first group around and older then any other one.
     
  18. DHK

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    innumerable. Too many to count. History lost that count long ago.
    You ought to be ashamed for falling into the same category that Jesus rebuked:
    "Ye do err not knowing the scriptures..."
    What makes you think he never repented?
    Does this verse either prove or say that he never repented?
    Do you know what "Moses' seat" is? Care to define it? Give the verse, that is the context in which it is found while you are at it.
     
  19. steaver

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    You do error, not knowing the Scriptures, but rather you follow the traditions of men.

    1Jo4:1 - "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

    Matt 7:15 - "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

    We are called to judge men by their works, whether they be true children of God or false pretenders. Especially those who hold an office or seek to. Obviously these Pedophile Priest, and Pastors, ARE NOT Christians. You have brought up this "we are not to judge" argument in other threads and I keep proving you wrong through Scripture. Why do you not listen to the Scripture, or at least show me why the Scripture I provide for my case is being misapplied? Tell us all how YOU make yourself aware of false prophets and teachers, and how you "Try the spirits". You won't, because your traditions of men are telling you not to make these biblical judgments. You follow men and disregard the instructions of God.
     
  20. steaver

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    You don't get it do you? EVERYONE is lost UNTIL they repent. AFTER they repent and receive the Holy Spirit they DO NOT murder any longer. Show me where Paul abused mankind AFTER he was saved!
     

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