The Archilles heel of Arminianism - Jn. 6:64-65

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 16, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

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    Jn. 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    Here is absolute proof that "some" are not drawn by the Father and therefore the "all" in John 12:32 does not mean "all without exception" but rather is the same "all" in John 6:45a or the same "all" that are given by the Father to come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:37-39).

    No objective interpreter can possibly deny with a straight face that Jesus is giving verse 65 as His explanation why "some" among his disciples in verse 64 did not believe in him and never did "from the beginning." These "some" had never been drawn by the Father and therefore never came to Christ in true faith, and thus their confession and baptism even though EXTERNALLY correct as to word content and baptismal expression was not, and never was the true expression of their hearts.

    Hence, correct external conformation by words and actions do not save anyone, but true saving faith must be "given" in connection with supernatural work of God in the heart.
     
  2. Skandelon

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    Jesus also taught:

    32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34 So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. 42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

    Where did the authorities "faith" come from in verse 42? Where they regenerated? If not, how did they, being totally depraved, even muster up that?
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    You are attempting to derail the thread and that is against the rules of BB. The OP is about Jn. 6:64-65. This OP is not about regeneration. If you want to discuss this passage then open a thread about it and I will comply.

    John 12:42 provides NOTHING contextually to contradict anything I have said. I can interpret within the framework I have provided. However, you have already conceded TWICE in previous posts that "all" in John 12:32 does not mean all without exception and that contextually it is directly related to and a response from certain Greeks seeking Christ as the context will show.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jan 16, 2014
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  4. InTheLight

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    No objective interpreter can possibly say with a straight face that those that do not come to Christ were never drawn. Coming to Christ and being drawn are not synonymous.
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    I believe John 6:44 declares that the he drawn is the he raised and the he raised is "all" in John 6:45 that is taught = drawn by God. Hence, I disagree with your opinion.

    However, this OP is about John 6:64-65 which provides indisputable proof that "some" who professed the right gospel, submitted to the right baptism and were called "disciples' had never been drawn by the Father. Moreover, this is the "all" of the Covenant people of grace in Isa. 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 or that covenant described in Hebrew 8 and 10 which includes all the elect or "all" those given by the Father to come by faith to the Son - Jn. 6:37-39.

    Therefore, the Arminian doctrine that John 12:32 refers to all men without exception is proven false as here are "some" who had the correct profession, correct baptism but HAD NEVER truly believed with the heart BECAUSE they had never been drawn by the Father and thus never "heard" and "taught" in the sense described in John 6:45.
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jan 16, 2014
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  6. InTheLight

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    The "some" in John 6:64-65 is one individual--Judas Iscariot.

    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
    61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
    63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you who do not believe."

    Therefore, your point is safely dismissed as bunk.[/QUOTE]
     
    #6 InTheLight, Jan 16, 2014
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  7. The Biblicist

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    You need to read more carefully.

    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said to them, Does this offend you?
    62 What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that vivifies; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I to you, that no man can come to me, except it were given to him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


    1. First "disciples" plural not singular as you suggest

    2. Second, the "you" represents a PLURAL pronoun rather than singular as you suggest.

    3. "THEY" plural believed not, rather than just singular "who" as you suggest.

    4. "MANY of his disciples" instead of just one as you suggest

    Judus is merely INCLUDED in the "they" and "many" and plural "you."
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Sadly Biblicist must 'insert" the very words not found in the text - giving us a perfect example of the words we do NOT find in John 6!

    " "some" are not drawn by the Father " - not found in John 6 at all.

    So then we have another test case showing that Calvinism makes its points in "out of the void of what is NOT in the text" while downsizing what "IS in the text".


    And as if to illustrate the point
    The Calvinist argument is that "ALL" does not mean "ALL" the way it normally reads in the chapter - but rather "ALL" is open for "downsizing".

    So also "World".

    Because when you get to appeal to statements NOT in the text as your "proof" combined with liberal and imaginative "inferences" -- well the sky is the limit!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. agedman

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    What is so unfortunate, is that some do not understand the use by John (an Israeli) of these two words in comparison to the typical Anglo-Saxon thinking.

    As a result, they demean what they do not understand because they have not spent time to discern the use.

    For instance, when the Scriptures state, "ALL Israel will be saved," some would recognize that would not include certain Jews that Jesus labeled as their father being the Devil."

    When John records that "God so loved the world," some would actually recognize that the statement is not all inclusive for every element, because again, the statements of Christ. Such statements as, "My kingdom is not of this world..."

    Perhaps with a bit more understanding of Scriptures and the problem of the English language compared to the thinking of those raised as Jews, the difficulties expressed in some threads would be less of a contention. Certainly, they would be more properly aligned with the truth of Scriptures.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    By contrast to the much imagined (proof that "some" are not drawn by the Father)

    we have

    1. They did not believe him "for fear of the Pharisees" not "because they were not drawn".

    2. And "Draw all" is in direct contradiction to the "does not draw all" of the OP post's speculation.

    In John 12:32 it is the "unqualified all" that are drawn.

    In John 6 it is a "qualified IN the text ALL" that come to Christ. Thus Calvinism requires an "insert" for any qualification it ever finds for "ALL" in all of scripture - as held in reserve to be inserted 'as it wills'.

    So then NOT inserting it in Romans 3 "ALL have sinned" but does insert it in John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL" because the insert is needed.

    proof: (from the OP: the "all" in John 12:32 does not mean "all without exception" but rather is the same "all" in John 6:45a or the same "all" that are given by the Father to come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:37-39). )

    The case for Calvinism is based entirely on "taking liberties with the text".

    How sad.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Again... taking liberties with the text.

    Your quote of Romans 11 is a case where Paul explicitly states in the context to Romans 11 that "They are NOT all Israel who are sons of the flesh.. but the children of the PROMISE" Romans 9 and in Romans 2 "He is not a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY" and so when we get to Romans 11 Paul shows BOTH Jews AND gentiles being saved with the result as He says in Romans 11 that "ALL Israel will be saved".

    Context is everything as it turns out.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Your answer is always PITTING scripture against scripture rather than harmonizing Scripture. That is your only answer because you cannot harmonize them as they contradict your position. John 12:32 is the later text which is to be interpreted by the earlier exposition of Christ in John 6 but you reverse it and must because your position contradicts the earlier exposition.



    Again, you pick and choose. Jesus goes on to further qualify that "fear" was due to because they LOVED THE GLORY OF MEN and not the glory of God which defines their motive underlying their profession - false profession just as those in John 6:64 was false profession.

    John 6:64 makes this interpretation IMPOSSIBLE as your intepretation of John 12:32 not only ignores the immediate context (vv. 21-24) but directly contradicts John 6;64. Like all false doctrine your doctrine is derived by pitting scripture against scripture rather than harmonozing it.

    No, "all" that is given by the Father to the Son "shall" come to Christ so that 100% given is 100% saved with 0% lost "lose nothing." Hence, those in John 6:64 were NEVER GIVEN by the Father.

    NONE come to the Son in the sense of true profession that are not first given to the Son and so "all" who come were "of all" who were given - period!

    Furthermore, since NONE come who were not first "given" and "ALL" given do in fact come then all drawn by the Father include only "ALL" given by the Father and those in John 6:64 were neither drawn or given by the Father.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    they were the ones that God drew to the Cross of Christ, the ones He chose to save!

    was the hardening of sinners JUST for the lost jews of Jesus time, or for all sinners not saved by God?
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Note the contextual development in these verses. They are first exposed to light and the natural response to light by the fallen nature is resistance as described. The same response is noted by Christ in John 3:19-20. The only exception to this response in fallen man to light is attributed to the work of God (John 3:21) rather than to man.

    All fallen men naturally reject light whether it is the light of conscience, the light of nature, the light of special written revelation or the light of God in the incarnate person of Christ or the light of the gospel. The hardening process begins whenever the lost man is exposed to any kind of light. These same men had already been hardened in many other areas just as like you and I were hardened in many other areas even before we were exposed to the gospel. We were hardening in response to our own conscience from the time we could discern conscience in many different areas of our life. False religion is just another expression of hardening. These same persons had already hardened by resisting the truth of God's word and perverting it into false Judaism such as the doctrines of the Sadducees and Pharisees and Essenes.

    Therefore, hardening is not a special select few Jews or merely restricted to the nation of Israel but is the NORMAL reaction of the fallen nature when exposed to light apart from the quickening power of God.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    Back on track with the OP! John 6:64-65 identifies "some" who were NEVER DRAWN by the Father but yet must have made a correct profession and must have submitted to baptism as that is the only way Christ would claim them as "his disciples."

    This specific example, repudiates the interpretation of John 12:32 that "all" refers to all mankind without exception as John 6:64-65 is a clear exception. Moreover, John 12:32 is in context, and is in direct response to "Greeks" who were wishing to see him and thus the term "all" in John 12:32 means "all mankind without distinction of race, gender or status" and refers to the same "all" in John 6:37-39; 45a.

    Moreover, God does not draw any other persons but "all" who are given to the Son TO COME to Him as to "draw" equals "come" rather than the false idea that "draw" conveys or transferrs ability to POTENTIALLY come to him. Hence, "he" that is drawn IS "he" that is raised in John 6:44. Hence, "he" that is drawn is "all" that are actually taught by God in John 6:45a. Hence, EVERY MAN that is taught (heard, learned) does in fact come to Christ - Jn. 6:45b as only those NEVER drawn (Jn. 6:64-65) are the only ones who NEVER come to Christ in true saving faith.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    caesar ordered a census for ALL the world, was that really for England and China, or just for the Roman Empire?

    God desires to save ALL, is that all mean every sinner, or those whom God intended jesus to die and atone for?

    drawing sinners to Jesus is work of the father/Holy spirit, and ONLY thsoe whom they deem to save get saved!
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Let the reader judge for themselves if "some" is not found in John 6 in the precise text I said it was (v. 64) which denies they were DRAWN by the Father (v. 65).
     
  18. prophet

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    What is unfortunate, is that God left us without a guide. Finally, you have shown up, and now all of us poor English Speaking peoples can be enlightened.
    I speak as a fool, of course.

    Truth is, some of us find your insinuation that our language is somehow inefficient, to be a most savage insult. And seeing how God arranged for the Scriptures to show up in Greek, at a time when the whole world used Greek as a 2nd language, at least of trade; One would be ignorant to miss the fact that English has taken that role, currently.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    So, it would HAVE to be a special hardening towards just national isreal at that time for Skan and others here to be right, for id it is normal for sinners to harden and reject the Gospel and Jesus apart from work of God towards them, then calvinism is right option here!
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Yes, the normal response of the fallen nature is to resist light (Jn. 3:19-20):

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


    Note that Jesus did not say "Israel" or "jews" but "men loved darkness." This is the normal response of the fallen nature. Remember, Jesus had been speaking about "the world" (all mankind without distinction of race, gender or class) rather than Israel or Jews.

    The generation Jesus is facing is a generation that already had been hardened toward the truth and this hardening can be seen in its religious classes (Pharisees, Sadducees) by their acceptance of false doctrine, a false gospel that made their disciples twofold more children of hell than they were because now they think they are God's children when they are still Satan's children whereas, before they knew they were lost. Hardening takes form in false profession, false doctrine, and now in resisting the incarnation of light - Jesus Christ which is the epitomy of hardening in the ultimate degree as Christ actually lived and walked among them and yet they rejected him due to their own depraved fallen condition.

    When fallen men come to the light the credit is given wholly to God alone:

    Jn. 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    The Greek preposition "hoti" is translated "that" and means "because" providing the reason for those who come to the light. The prepositional phrase "in God" defines the sphere of this activity that it is "IN God" as "IN Christ" not OUTSIDE of union with God as Arminians demand. This person has been brought into spiritual union with God thus "IN God" and that is why they come to the light.
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2014
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