The Atonement;AW Pink

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    My thoughts and understanding of the priestly work of our Lord come from a perspective that embraces what theologically are known as the doctrines of grace. I believed these truths from scripture before I knew of the terms or history surrounding these terms.
    You might not have come to the same conclusions that I have....[yet]::laugh:
    If you can improve my understanding of these truths i will be thankful to God.
    This first outline comes from AW Pink.
    The second one will come from Hugh Martin
    Third will be John Owen

    Everyone is welcome to come in.:wavey: Be Kind, and Patient with each other.
    Let us see if we can edify one another as Holy Brethren,even as we might differ.....on some points.:thumbsup:

    Let's take some time and look into the teaching of The Atonement-

    1] IT's Source

    2]Necessity

    3]Pre-requisites

    4]Nature

    5]Design

    6]Efficacy

    7]Application

    8]Results

    9]Effects

    10]Extent

    11]Typification

    12]Reception

    What questions would you like answered in looking at the atonement?

    What verse,or verses would you like to consider,and in which category?
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    From the introduction;
    To what source can we appeal for light, for understanding,for an explanation,and interpretation of the cross?
    human reasoning is futile
    speculation is profane
    opinions of men are worthless
    We are to rely on God's word alone
    What did Christ do on earth to reconcile us to God ?
     
  3. asterisktom

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    A great topic! Unfortunately, I just now saw this as I was going to bed.:sleeping_2:

    Hopefully others will add to this thread tonight. It is very good for us to study out and meditate on what we have in Christ, on just who He is. We covered many of these points you raised as we went through our study on Hebrews in my old Bible study. As I taught through it I often referred to both Owen and Pink esp. Owen and his Commentary and Christologia.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    The Source.......
    1] The will of God
    2]The love of God
    3]The righteousness of God
    4]The glory of God
    5]The covenant of God


    To understand any doctrine it is helpful to consider and stretch our minds by framing out that teaching by thinking of the where the scriptures lead us on that topic.
    Can you think of scriptures that match this outline,that link God as the source of the atonement?
     
  5. Allan

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    I think before you start laying out mans view of how the atonement works, it is best to begin where it began. In the OT... under the Law. Though there are foreshadows preceding it.. it was in the Law where the Atonement is described.. to whom it is for.. as well as it's purpose.

    We all know that God is the source.. but as that source he has given us, with great care, His word to guide us in understanding (as you are desiring to show). However, it is best to begin from the beginning and grasp first what the Law (which established the work and necessity of the atonement) says about it. It is from there we understand the work of Christ and the propitiation for our sins.

    just my thoughts.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    This question would fall into category 11 – Typification. What/who does Azazel represent? I'm for real curious to hear other's thoughts/knowledge on this.

    7 And he shall take the two goats, and set them before Jehovah at the door of the tent of meeting.
    8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for Jehovah, and the other lot for Azazel.
    9 And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for Jehovah, and offer him for a sin-offering.
    10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before Jehovah, to make atonement for him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness.
    26 And he that letteth go the goat for Azazel shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp. Lev 16

    I believe this is the only mention of Azazel in the scriptures.
     
  7. RAdam

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    Azazel, or the scapegoat, is one of those complex types.

    - It typifies Jesus Christ in the sense that all the sins of God's people were placed onto it.
    - It typifies Jesus in that it is a live goat, as well the sin offering goat that dies also represents Jesus, in that Jesus died and yet lives.
    - It typifies the entire body of sin for God's elect people.
    - The fit man, by whose hand the scapegoat is taken into the wilderness pictures Jesus taking away the sin of His people into what the bible calls a land no inhabited (literally a land of separation). Jesus forever separated our sins from us, and we shall not be punished with everlasting punishment for them. Now those sins are gone, they are forgotten, God has cast them behind His back, they are as far from us as the east is from the west (an infinite distance).

    That whole 16th chapter of Leviticus is filled with pictures of the atoning work of Christ. What a great section of scripture! What a wonderful Savior we have!
     
  8. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Reminder

    I think it was a reminder of cain and able and the comming of the Lord the one who takes the sin of the world punishment and also takes the sin away of those who trust the Lord and believes in Him and who He is. They are saved the same was as those who trusted in the Lord and His word and looked at the snake lifted up and saved from death.Trusting in the Lord is no way working for our salvation or take away from grace. Only men believe that not God.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    RAdam......good post, and Lev.16 ties in with what Allan brought up about some of the ot portions.

    kyredneck.....Zondervans bible dictionary says this; on azazel
    scapegoat/removal
    1] it has been regarded as the name of an evil spirit living in the wilderness to whom the sin laden goat was sent
    2] an abstraction meaning removal
    3]an epithet of the devil....the goat laden with sin belongs to the devil
    12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
    19He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

    The Source.......
    1] The will of God/eph1:11,acts2:23
    2]The love of God/ Jer31:3 jn3:16
    3]The righteousness of God/ ex34:7 rom3:26 5:21
    4]The glory of God/rom11:33-36 jn17:10 ,24 rev4:11
    5]The covenant of God/ heb13:20
     
    #9 Iconoclast, Oct 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2010
  10. Iconoclast

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    The Necessity; jn3 Lk24
    14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

    26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

    It was necessary because of;

    1]the will of God

    2]the law of God

    3]by sin

    Can you think of verses that would demonstrate this?
     
  11. DixieBoy

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    I come from a background of observance of the DOA (Day of Atonement.) I thought I would share some of my understanding on this subject. The goat that was sacrificed at the temple was to cover Aaron sins. Then he could enter into the Holy of Holies. The sins of the nation of Israel were placed on the head of the Azazel. Azazel comes from Azaz meaning a rough or high mountain ledge.

    The Azazel was taken to this ledge and cast headlong over the cliff, thus killing the animal. The rope attached to the animal was red in color. If the rope remained red it was viewed as God's sign that their sins were not forgiven. If it turned white it was viewed as God's acceptance of the sacrifice and their sins forgiven.

    While on the subject of sacrifices I wanted to mention, that parts of most sacrifices were eaten by the priest only. The most important sacrifice was that of the Skip Over. The flesh of it was to be eaten by all citizens of Israel. Its meaning was/is that death skips over us. It is the only sacrifice rolled over into the NT. It is now the bread and wine we take at Communion.

    Anyway, my two cents. :jesus:
     
  12. Iconoclast

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  13. Iconoclast

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    As we have pointed out above, atonement could only be effected by a full satisfaction rendered to the Law; and this involved two things: first, a perfect obedience given to all its precepts; second, a full endurance of its unrelenting punishment. But how could a Divine Person enter the place of subserviency and become subject to the Law’s demands? And again, how could a Divine Person suffer and die? This seems an insolvable problem, yet Divine wisdom provided a glorious solution. One of the Eternal Three, without in anywise ceasing to be God, took upon Him the form of a Servant and became Man. The Divine incarnation was undertaken in order to accomplish sin’s expiation. The eternal Word’s becoming flesh was a gracious means to a glorious end: it was that He might mediate between God and His people.
    1. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE MAN
    2. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE SINLESS
    3. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE HOLY
    4. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE MASTER OF HIMSELF
    5. THE MEDIATOR MUST ACT VOLUNTARILY
    6. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE FEDERALLY UNITED TO HIS PEOPLE
    7. THE MEDIATOR MUST BE DIVINE

    Are we all agreed on these points? If so let's proceed.

    Can you see how clearly this unfolds in the scriptures?
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Oct 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2010
  14. kyredneck

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    7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the Tent of Meeting.
    8 Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats--one lot for the Lord, the other lot for Azazel or removal.
    9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord's lot fell and offer him as a sin offering.
    10 But the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel or removal shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over him, that he may be let go into the wilderness for Azazel (for dismissal). Lev 16 Amplified Bible

    Where in the scriptures are any of these instructions given? Where in the scriptures is it articulated that they were to do it this way? I understand the scriptures to say that the goat was to be set free, not killed. And I see no mention whatsoever of a red rope that was to turn white. This has to be Jewish superstition.
     
    #14 kyredneck, Oct 23, 2010
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  15. psalms109:31

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    I like many things Pink teaches and is very wise. I am not a hyper pink or a hyper anything. I believe the Scripture over men. I agree He secured a people that was
    already His, but also included with them those who have heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. It is awesome that God will include a dog like me begging at the table. Praise God through Jesus.
     
    #15 psalms109:31, Oct 23, 2010
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  16. Allan

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    I note you stopped here.. why?

    How come you didn't go into 'whom' the Law declared the atonement was to be given 'for'? You will note in that that is was for ALL Israel, regardless whether an Israelite believed or not, it was made on his behalf.

    Nope.. not unless one wishes to ignore parts of the atonement that make it "Lawfully" acceptable unto to God.

    I see Pink doing quite a bit of cherry picking personally to formulate his view, while leaving out aspects that contradict it.
     
  17. Amy.G

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    I was going to ask the same thing, but I thought maybe I just missed something. I guess I didn't after all. I've never heard of this.
     
  18. kyredneck

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel

    "The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910) contains the following entry:

    The Rabbis, interpreting "Azazel" as Azaz ("rugged"), and el ("strong"), refer it to the rugged and rough mountain cliff from which the scapegoat was cast down on Yom Kippur when the Jewish Temples in Jerusalem stood. (Yoma 67b; Sifra, Aḥare, ii. 2; Targum Jerusalem Lev. xiv. 10, and most medieval commentators). Most modern scholars, after having for some time endorsed the old view, have accepted the opinion mysteriously hinted at by Ibn Ezra and expressly stated by Nachmanides to Lev. xvi. 8, that Azazel belongs to the class of "se'irim," goat-like spirits, jinn haunting the desert, to which the Israelites were accustomed to offering sacrifice. (Compare "the roes and the hinds," Cant. ii. 7, iii. 5, by which Sulamith administers an oath to the daughters of Jerusalem. The critics were probably thinking of a Roman faun.)"
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Hello Allan,
    You asked this;
    I stopped or paused because I believe this is where we as believers start to drift apart in our understanding of what was accomplished at the cross.
    I am glad that you raised these questions, as I believe with every area of doctrine is given as it is so that as we go over it our understanding of God's love will grow.

    Let's pause and look at each issue....no rush here....let's see how many good questions we can ask and answer.

    Allan, you asked this
    ;
    This is interesting and instructive in that it makes me think of this;

    The High Priest wore 12 stones on his breatplate to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
    Allan will you admit at this point that the high priest was not interceding for any of the non-covenant gentile nations at this point of redemptive history? You state that it was for "all Israel".
    Do you agree on this,at least during the OT.period?

    The question of whom the all Israel is will unfold several times in this study. I know that you and several other brothers and sisters here try to stress that the work of the cross was designed for every person who was ever born. I do not think this position can be maintained scripturally and that's where I think we can take time and re-examine this issue.

    For example when we interacted on the Eph5;25 discussion you said;
    and this;
    you said these things in post 29......then as I questioned you and you responded with this in post 32;
    I agree that through faith we receive the work of Jesus on the cross!
    However.....how do you say as you clearly have stated that Jesus takes away the sins of the unbelieving world? If they are not given grace and faith...how are their sins taken away?

    Propitiation means to turn away the wrath of God. You say propitiation has been made for all! At the white throne judgement it will not be the love of God that the unbeliever receives.....but the wrath of God.......so why or in what way can you state that propitiation has been made for all,,,in any sense whatsoever?

    This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial pointon this topic

    Allan...[or anyone else ...are welcome] to try and explain how you see this view as possible. I believe God speaks in clear language on this.
    Let me know what verses you think show your view better.I have stated up front that at this point I have a definate point of view[1689 confessional position] is the closest summary of where I stand biblically.

    Also...anytime we quote any theologian we are interested on the scripturethey offer...I have posted links to Pink's book and others on the atonement as a starting point and a base of operations.
    As time permits, feel free to illustrate where the man "cherry picks" cut and paste and we can look at it.:thumbsup:
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Oct 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2010
  20. DixieBoy

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    The goat was led away to a rocky mount and was killed in public view. Our Lord was led away in like fashion to Golgotha, a rocky mount and was lifted up and slain so all could see.
     

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