Featured The Baptism debate

I didn't want to interject too much, but the baptismal regeneration position is not only unscriptural, but illogical, as well. So, every baptized infant is automatically regenerated, but it is quite evident that every such infant does not come to faith. Why? Does God then regenerate baptized infants knowing that He will not draw all of them to faith? So He gives all of them spiritual rebirth by the incantation of a formula and a physical ritual, but withholds faith from some of them? What you have here then is many baptized infants who are spiritually reborn but not saved -- an impossibility. So, both scripture and reason destroy baptismal regeneration.

 

How does this person know he has been saved if he was "saved" as an infant without exercising faith? And how can you say he was saved??

 

Perhaps they see it as say the Church of Christ, that water baptism completes the salvation process?

 

IF , as per his church, God produces saving faith to infants in water baptism, does that mean ALL will be saved once sprinkled?

Does it work on adults same way, so that ALL might getsaved, as God would doa faith producing work in the water for them?

 

The reason, brother that it doesn't make sense to you is that you believe in the doctrine of "eternal security". So by your thinking, if God gives someone the free gift of salvation, then that person has a free ticket into heaven no matter what. If he lives like the devil, shakes his fist in God's face, and even curses God, he is still saved, he is still going to go to heaven when he dies.

Lutherans don't believe this. We believe that the Christian who's faith is in Christ never has to worry about losing his salvation. We also do not believe, unlike our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, that good works help in your salvation, or a lack of enough good works dooms you to hell.

The Christian who's faith is in Christ can be fully confident of salvation and of his eternal security. He doesn't need to worry about whether or not he has done enough good works to get into heaven, because salvation was a free gift. You don't have to do ANYTHING to receive a truly free gift, and that includes baptism!

God chooses when to save us, not us. With me, He chose to save me when I was nine years old. I placed my faith in Christ. But I did so, not because I made a free will decision as a sinner to believe, I did so, because God had predestined me before the world began to be his child. I was later baptized (in a baptist church). Lutherans believe I was saved when I believed, not later when I was baptized.

However, with other people, we believe God can save them at the time of their infant baptism, as children of Christians, to whom God gave the promise of salvation in Acts 2:38. Again, it is God who saves. It is God who accomplishes all the action in salvation. It is not part you and part God. So if God wants to save someone as an infant, He, as the Almighty ruler of Universe can do as he pleases. We believe that the Bible says that God also saves at the time of baptism by the power of his Word, not by anything the minister says, or anything magical about the water.

If you have been predistined, God already has decided to save you. He doesn't have to wait for you to have enough maturity and intellect so that you can make a decision to believe. He chose you. You WILL be saved. So he can save you when he wants.

Now, a child of Christian parents, who is baptized, needs to be nourished with the Word as he/she grows up, or as a seed cast on poor ground, it will sprout up, but then wither and die. Lutherans believe that a Christian can lose his salvation, not by not doing enough good works, but by rejecting God, turning from God, and living a deliberate life of sin.

Why do we believe this? Because of these verses: Heb. 6:4-6, Gal. 5:1-5, heb. 10:26, Rom. 11:17-22, Rev. 22:19, I Cor. 6:9, Heb. 3:6-14, II Peter 2:20-22

Just because someone was baptized as an infant is not an automatic ticket into heaven. Faith has to be nourished or it will die. Any Lutheran or other orthodox Christian who tells you that he has an automatic ticket into heaven just because he was baptized, he can live like Satan himself, but will still sneak into the pearly gates, is very mistaken. He may well wake up in hell!

Growing up Baptist, I saw several people who went forward during an altar call, prayed the Sinner's Prayer, and were "born again", and years later committed terrible crimes: murder, child molestation, etc.. I know of other "born again" Christians who have completely left the church, do not pray, and are not really sure they believe in God. I know one born-again Baptist who converted to be a Muslim to marry her husband. Are these people really going to get into heaven just because they have their "Born Again, Keep-out-of-Hell Free" card?

I know what some Baptists will say, "Well, obviously those people were not saved to begin with!" How can you know for sure?

By the way, Lutherans agree with Calvinists on Predestination for the Elect. We strongly disagree with the Calvinist idea of "Double Predestination" which says that God chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.

Lutherans believe that God chooses who will go to heaven, and Man sends himself to hell.

Not logical? Who said God has to be logical?

 

Thanks for your question. My response above will hopefully answer your question.

 

I'm not debating anymore, brother...I'm preaching the Good News of the Gospel!

Salvation is a FREE gift. Don't worry about all the theology, just do what Christ said: Believe, repent, be baptized. God does the saving, so just do what he says and leave the saving up to Him. We can argue about when God saves but bottom line it doesn't matter..."Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!"

If you are reading this forum and you have never believed in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, believe now! You don't have to pray a prayer to be saved. You don't have to go to a church to be saved. You don't have do some good deeds for God to accept you and save you. You don't have to be baptized to be saved. Just believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, as YOUR Lord! That means turn from your life of sin, repent, and follow Christ.

As soon as you can you should then follow Christ's command to be baptized.

Share the Good News of Christ with your wife or your husband. Share it with your children. Hopefully they too will believe and be saved.

If you have small children or infants, bring them to Christ. He wants to save them too. Bring them to the waters of Holy Baptism and by faith in the power of the Word of God, God will save them, as He promised in Acts 2:38. Nourish the seed of faith that God has placed in them at baptism, so that they will grow in faith in Christ.

Belive right now, my friend! Believe right now and be saved immediately! Believe and immediately be a child of God, a Christian. Salvation and eteranl life is a free gift. Just believe and it is yours!

 

I do NOT believe in the doctrine of eternal security. Where did you get that from? In fact, I reject all five points of Calvinism, as others here who know me can attest.

So, try again. But get your facts straight before posting something about me.

 

slight correction here;

Eternal security has nothing whatsoever to do with Calvinism but rather belongs to certian Arminian camps, it is not to be confused with the persverence of the saints which teaches that one who is genuinely saved will perservere in the faith right upto the end.

Any6way sorry for intrrupting, back to the subject at hand

 

I wonder if you can see the contradiction in your words, in a previous post you said;

Yet here you are saying that Jesus wants to save our children - how do you know that if he only saves those he has chosen to save?

As for Acts 2:38 that you keep referring to if the waters of baptism wash a persons sins away how can they fail to reach heaven? either sin is washed away or it isn't?

 

baptism washes away the taint of original sin and any conducted sins up to that point. Not those sins commited after baptism.

 

1 Peter 3:21 doesn't support your view that baptism is a "Figure" of salvation. Look closely at what 1 Peter actually says.

Interesting passage btw. Without going into the other theological implications of this passage look at what he's saying...Jesus proclaimed to the spirits in prison which are there because they didn't obey during the time of Noah's building the Ark. Now look at the next passage.

Now Baptism which now saves has a direct relationship to Noah's Ark because Noah's Ark forshadows baptism where Noah and his family were saved in the Ark through the Deluge. Note another forshadowing of baptism is the exodus through the red sea. That is how that passage is constructed.

 

Not at all. I've shown you the context of Romans 4 and the emphasis of that chapter is not on blessedness but on faith. You fail to recognize this and restructure the whole chapter on the one word blessedness which is an example quote from David. The Context of the Chapter is about Faith not blessedness. Blessedness is a result of the faith that Paul is addressing. Your problem is you attempt to create another context which was never intended by the author. Or more simply put. You use that passage out of its context applying the context to fit your theology thus you use pretext to determine the passage and its wrong. I've explained this numerous times to you but you fail to listen. Therefore there is nowhere to go with this passage in the discussion. The only solution is to agree to disagree.

 

How then does this fit into the discussion here on water baptism?

Romans 6: 1-10!

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God

 

No mental gymnastics at all just the plain text of the passage which you conviniently ignore

I've already commented on your analysis.

I haven't missed his point entirely. And I wasn't addressing persecution but the plain interpretation of the text.

Nowhere does he say in that passage that baptism is a type. He actually says that Noah's Ark is connected to the baptism which now saves you meaning that the Ark was a prefigure of Baptism.

I haven't disagreed with that part of the passage. I affirm that part of the passage

I affirm that as well. But niether point validates what you think the passage is saying about baptism.
It is clear that you are the one working hard at the mental gymnastics to say something different that what Peter says regarding baptism. Look all I have to do is just quote the passage. The whole point Peter wants to make about suffering is summed up nicely in verse 17

Thats the point of this particular passage and he then says using Jesus sacrifice to say

That Jesus by his suffering and death brought people to God allowing them to put to death their sin nature (flesh) to be made new living creatures in Christ (alive in the spirit), in which, then then proclaimed this to those who died before hand. Specifically those

who could have been saved but disobeyed God whereas God saved Noah through the water which connects to baptism because baptism saves you not a removal of physical dirt but it appeals to God by the power of the resurrection for a good conscience (in order to live rightly btw.) as he says

The passage is clear in its plain reading. You've done the gymnastics.

 

there is indeed a liquid that washes away ALL sins past/present/future, but NOT the water of baptism, but the "blood of jesus!"