The Baptist Split Of 1832

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by tyndale1946, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    This time in history is what defined Baptist... Up until this time according to all the writers of church history all the Baptist believed the same thing. It is so important to view this era of the Baptist brethren because like it or not and the factions it produced these things were added to the church that were not originally there.

    Those that held to those things were called Old School... Those that added things to the church were called New School. It is not my purpose in looking at this time in our history to pin point every problem that arose... The fact of the matter remains we were not there!... There still remains much grist for the mill as it effected Particular... Strict... and Regular Baptist... and if I am not mistaken the problem started in England with Fuller and Carey.

    So why was there a Baptist Split of 1832 and what was the reason for it?... We should be examining the Who... Why... What... When... And Where because like it or not we would all be of one accord at this moment as Baptist if it didn't happen... But it did and changed the Baptist landscape for all time and resulted in the isism and schisims that followed.

    Even on the BB we meet Baptist of every denomination under the sun but at one time believe it or not we were all of one accord. This is hard to believe and maybe I am just blowing smoke and don't really understand the gravity of the situation... So I turn to the brethren as a unifiying body that we might examine one of the darkest times in our history as Baptist.

    Two good resources are... The Baptist In all Ages... By Elder J.S. Newman... This publication is online... And Fifty Years Among The Baptist by David Benedict in book form.

    Perhaps you all have others that you could recommend and where to find them... I don't know whether Trail Of Blood by J.M. Carroll of the Landmark brethren address this issue or not... I know Hassell does in his History Of The Church Of God which can also be found online... Then I'm sure if Brother Jeff has the time he will also bring in points of interest along with Brother Robert... Me I thought this would be an interesting subject to explore and we can all learn and grow and understand a part of US... For we are all a part of Baptist History!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. Jim1999

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    Brother Glen,
    This is a link to the site for Landmark Baptists. I get a weekly message from them and covers a great deal of history of Baptists...

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist

    I also get the regular church bulletin from Bryan Station Baptist Church in Kentucky. One of my old professors was from Kentucky. This bulletin offers many reprints, including the Trail of Blood ($1.50 US). The site is: http://www.bryanstation.com.

    They also offer reprints of Dr.C.D. COle's lectures..Definition of Doctrine (volumes 1, 2 and 3); Doctrine of Election and his Lectures in Biblical Theology: New Testament. Great reads.

    There were always divisions among Baptists in England, starting with Arminianism vs Calvinism.later Open and closed communion and a few other doctrines, including eschatology, since many Baptist churches were formed out of the Plymouth Brethren and Dispensationalism.....then, of course, there was the liberal-conservative split.

    In Canada, our first split was in 1925. It had to do with liberalism. The next split came in 1953, which was over personalities and not doctrine. Since that time, different Baptist groups have entered into Canada and opened churches, including the Southern Baptist and a good old KJVO group.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    I would add to the list of references: Francis Wayland's 1859 book Principles and Practices of Baptists. Brother Wayland was active in New England and the Mid-Atlantic States from the 1820s onwards. He wrote the book at the end of his ministry. So, it is a reflection on the period in question.
     
  4. Frogman

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    Beleive this or not Bro. Glen,

    I was just going to post this sort of topic, ya beat me to it, that's ok, I am going to enjoy reading from these posts.

    Bro. Jim, I use to receive the group e-mails from the Landmarker site (from J.R. Graves I believe), my e-mail has changed and I was wondering how to start receiving it again, perhaps I can find out from your site.

    Thanks for the refrence to Bryans Station. I have a copy from them of the Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll, and am reading it again, if I notice anything in it concerning the period in question, I'll post it.

    I was going to say that I am not certain about Fuller, I have not read much on him, but Carey is different. I researched him last semester for a Senior Seminar History Course and from memory I wondered if he fit the mold of pursuing missions by any means.

    Then I remembered his sermon which launched the missions movements. I wonder though if he intended this to be as it has happened, or if his beliefs weren't taken and added to.

    From the things he underwent while in India I think perhaps the modern missionary (speaking generically here brethren), is not a product of his doing.

    Thanks also Squire for your addition.

    I am reading "Baptists in All Ages" now and have already found Hassell's work to begin reading it.

    I don't expect to reconcile the differences, but I am interested in the causes, nature and depth of these.

    [Edited to correct spelling error.]

    God Bless All.
    Bro. Dallas

    [ February 24, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  5. rsr

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    Bro. Glen, you don't ask any easy questions, do you?
    :D
    Baptists have always been prone to schism. The first English Baptist church (General Baptist at that) split not long after it was established.

    Let me venture a couple of guesses:

    1. The Second Great Awakening had introduced a new strain of emotionalism into the churches, along with many new members. Perhaps the Black Rock Conference was a means of differentiating the Old School Baptists from the excesses they saw around them.

    2. The conference coincided with the growth of the Campbellites and related movements, all of which claimed to represent "authentic" Christianity. Many Baptist churches were devastated by Campbellism, and perhaps the Primitive Baptist movement was a reaction to firmly establish the Primitive Brethren's authenticity.

    Just some thoughts; must do more reading.

    Stephen
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Brother Dallas I have been going to post this for weeks... As it is a touchy subject but I counseled with Brother Robert before bringing it to the floor. Stephen no I don't believe in asking easy questions... Easy question have easy answers... Hard questions make you dig and burn the midnight oil :D I also invited Hardsheller here on the forum as I saw in his profile one of his interest was Baptist History. Maybe Solly will also be tempted by the topic and give us his views. We can all learn from each other and just maybe this will draw the attention of others who never even knew there was a split and what the results of it were!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. Jim1999

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    Brother Dallas,
    Try this :[email protected]

    The name on my list is Ben Stratton.

    Dr. C.D. Cole was one of my professors,,a fewwww years ago...he was connected with the Landmarkers and especially to the pastor at Bryan Station Baptist Church.....that is my connection with the site.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. Frogman

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    I think these things are very interesting. At least I am deeply interested in them. As I said above, I don't think I could resolve the issues, but I do want to understand them better.

    Bro. Jim,

    thanks for the info. Ben Stratton sometimes posts on the BB under JR Graves. He pastors I believe over in western Kentucky.

    Looking forward to discussing this topic, even though I feel out of my league, I guess everybody has to start somewhere, huh? I love to study history and especially love the history of the Lord's church.

    I started today downloading some of the works Bro. Glen mentioned onto disk. We are studying church history in Sunday School, using Carrol's Trail of Blood. I thought it would be interesteing to bring to the discussion some of these works from among the primitive brethren.

    It is controversial though, I mentioned it to some older people and they just tell me the missionaries have the true doctrine. Then they also don't agree with alot of the modern means employed in missions.

    At any rate, I feel it best for me to read for myself and see how the positions match up to Scripture. I think all could agree with this.

    God Bless All.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  9. Hardsheller

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    Don't know if this sheds more light or not.

    The Church I now pastor, Providence Baptist Church of Callaway County, MO. was founded in 1826. In 1834, the church hosted the first organizational meeting of what later would become the Missouri Baptist Convention (SBC).

    There was much debate during this entire period on missions and the Missions movement. Here is an excerpt from a paper I wrote on our Church's involvement in the Mo. Baptist Convention's beginnings.

    The anti-missions controversy that grew to divisive proportions in the early 1800’s was in its early stages more about methods, control, pride and jealously than it ever was about doing or not doing missions. The early objections to mission societies and paid missionaries at least to John Taylor and others like him were so clear that Taylor recorded what many frontier Baptists felt.

    First he thought that the agents and missionaries of the societies and convention put too much emphasis on gathering funds. He predicted that no amount would ever satisfy their demands. Secondly he saw the missions movement as the beginning of a Baptist aristocracy which would undermine the foundation of Baptist republican government. Thirdly, he did not approve of seminary trained ministers because they would of a necessity demand paid salaries from the churches they pastored. Based on his own experience with two missionaries who had stayed overnight in his home he had concluded, however wrongly, that the young crop of educated ministers were more interested in salaries than they were in preaching. And finally he was personally offended by missionary stories of privation and suffering because he himself had seen first hand privation and suffering among his Baptist brethren on the Virginia and Kentucky frontiers.


    You can read the entire paper by clicking here and following the links to the History of our church: Providence Baptist Church Web Site
     
  10. Frogman

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    Thanks Hardsheller for that information.

    I visited the site and printed the piece; couldn't copy it to my disk.

    Do you know if John Taylor is the same who started Baptist Faith Missions?

    I went to their site at www.baptistfaithmissions.org

    It is still loading, takes a while, they have added a lot of things since I was last on the site. The history section tells of the founding of this society and the original purpose etc.

    My family visited your state during the summer of 2001 (July), we went to Kirkland?? MO for a mission conference at Faith Baptist.

    On our return home we visited the museum in Columbia where we got a good look at the rich heritage of the state and area.

    Though this pertained to my calling, it also constituted the only vacation my wife and our children have ever been on together. We had a great time and the Lord blessed us.

    Again thanks for the added information.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Frogman

    Frogman
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    The following is an excerpt from BFM's History link:

    The First Baptist Church of Murray, Kentucky established the Amazon Valley Baptist Faith Missions for the purpose of evangelizing the unreached regions of tropical Brazil. It was a work based on FAITH from the beginning. Joseph F. Brandon began working in western Brazil in 1923. In 1941, the church that was raising his support ceased doing so.[/ B]

    The question about John Taylor??? I don't know where this came from unless my mind was associating the Taylor name to Hudson Taylor, why I don't know.

    Nevertheless, Brandon, as listed above is the first 'missionary' from what is now BFM. He was working in Brazil in 1923 and as you see from my italics, the church supporting him withdrew that.

    I don't know if the article explains why or not, but it would be helpful to know further. Nonetheless, he returned to the states and must have felt his work was not finished in Brazil.

    I know this does not directly pertain to the split of 1832, wouldn't it serve to show us some of the direction, or result of that split?

    I will further trace this and let you fellas know if I find anything.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  12. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Following is the depth of the article mentioned in my last post:

    [​IMG]

    I will withold comment for the moment, except to say, this does not go as deep into the issue as I had hoped. Though I believe the fissure is by this time wide enough to be self-evident even from this distance.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    It seems to me that the split being talked of here is a Southern phenomenon. From what I am reading here, y'all are not talking about the split of the Triennial Convention. That split occured in about the same time period.
     
  14. Jim1999

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    Keith, was that split over modernism? This is the same time period that modernism reared its ugly head and brought about many splits.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  15. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I assumed any 'split' resulting from this time period and the results. If this is incorrect or too broad let me know.

    In regards to Hardshellers article posted above:

    I consider myself to have always been a Baptist, brethren. However, I was raised in various denominations. Since adulthood I first attended a UMC where my wife went with her family and where we were married, by a Baptist preacher, of course. During my time here I had the opportunity to teach a Sunday school class. To my dismay the literature rarely discussed scripture, but would bring in various life examples of 'spiritual truths' without ever addressing the fact of being lost, the question was focused on what would Jesus do?, but never on Telling what Jesus Did. When I diverted from this course I was removed from the position as teacher. When I did discover a place where my own convictions were also held and joined and announced my call to preach, some of the congregation, with good intentions I believe, took it upon themselves to council me. They emphasized the fact that preaching in the style mentioned above was man making his own pulpit. Since, I have learned better, but doubtless to say, this hindered my ministry for some time as it produced in me a standard which was imposed upon me by men and not by God.

    Also, since this time I have known some who were most ferocious in their insistence that we not partake of this method, who have embarked on questionable methods.

    It is for this reason my interest has been developed toward this particular episode in our history.

    Sorry for writing so much, but this is a real issue to me. I see many who clamor over themselves to make new members into their image only to later seem to reveal they are defining this image as they go along.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Welcome Hardsheller... I glad you decided to come join our little family. One of the names that people use to call Primitive Baptist by was Hardshells... I guess it was be because of our hardhead that we wouldn't accept just everything under the sun... In doctrine or practice. I really believe we were Hardshalls because of the first chapter of Luke... All the shalls that the Angel Gabriel told the virgin Mary about the seed Jesus whom she would give birth to.

    Went to your site nice church and is that you with your wife... You are the pastor right?... Anyway I know there are mature brethren on here... I'm 57 and have been a member of my church 35 years... I guess most of the brethren here are in the same ballpark and some are older. I know there are no novices here as they are well founded in doctrine... practice... and church history. We have a mixture of all and really have lively discussions here.

    We could have used that picture of the tent revival when we were talking about them... Just a bunch of old baptist getting together for fellowship and good preaching... You know what they say old baptist like good singing... ferverant prayers... good preaching... good fellowship... and potluck [​IMG] ... Let me pass my plate :D

    Don't know how old rl vaughn also known as Brother Robert, Stephen, or Brother Dallas is they won't tell me but I know they are not new to the faith and have been around awhile... Anyway I'm sure glad you decided to join us and I was right as you have already fit right in our little group. I will pop in again when I something else to say... Just call me Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  17. rsr

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    The Triennial split occurred slightly later and was not based on the same issues.

    The North-South schism (culminating in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention in 1845) was a result of disagreement on a number of issues, including slavery, the need for a stronger denominational unity and complaints that the South was being short-changed in home missions work.
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    So did the Baptist Split originate in England and then find its way to America?... Or was this stricly an American problem?... Where is the connection?... Just something that crossed my mind for as a country we were fairly new in as a democracy... And theogracy!... Is that term appropriate?... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  19. Hardsheller

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    Bro. Glen, You wrote:

    Yep that's me. I'm 57 also.

    My late uncle referred to himself as a Hardshell Baptist, so that's where the User Name came from. It also fits since I'm Calvinistic in my personal theology.
    :D
     
  20. Hardsheller

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    John Taylor is known for his Anti-missions stance in Kentucky during the early 1800's. His writings are extremely rare and valuable should you come across any of them.

    He was a contemporary and a close personal friend of James Suggett who was the first permanent pastor of the church I now pastor. [​IMG]
     

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