The Bible and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Meercat, Feb 24, 2004.

  1. Meercat

    Meercat
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    Greetings and God bless all upon reading this!

    Since I could not find a "response window" for a similar thread, I have started a new thread.

    It is my assertion that according to the Bible Mary did NOT have other children following Jesus as is popularily thought. Here is why;

    First, it is popularily believed against Catholic teaching that Mary did indeed bare other children following the birth of Jesus because of these verses: Mt 18:55, Mk 6:2-3, and Gal 1:19.

    BUT when we get to James and Joseph two of the Lord's "brethren" we read in Mk 15:40, that these are the offspring of Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joseph, and Salome" in Mk 15:40.

    So, isn't this the same Mary as the mother of Joseph and Jesus?....yes and no. Joseph yes, but not Jesus. See Mt 10:3 "James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surmanem was Thaddeus."... This is also regarding James the Less, as the other James, son of Zebedee,, spoken of in the previous verse........I could go on, but I prefer you read from this directly for yourselves. There is no excuse NOT to.

    Please see what I mean and reference to at:

    http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/perpetualvirginity.htm

    Only those who reference this site in it's entirety please respond. I'm not interested in "off the cuff" remarks or polemics. Just check it out and THEN tell me what you say. - Thanks and God bless! - Meercat
     
  2. Justified Saint

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    There was recently another thread on this subject that is now locked because of exceeding pages.

    It should be noted that the only thing that could be demonstrated by the opponents of the perpetual virginity of Mary was that words like "brother" and "until" have a common meaning despite their different usages. From an exegetical standpoint, this proves absolutely nothing. Even Mr. Svendsen realized that he had to prove that there was not a single occurence of heous hou in his timeframe where the meaning of until implied a continuation of the verb in order to prove his point, but it seems like there are several instances anyways.
     
  3. DHK

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    OK, I've checked it out. This is what I believe to be more accurate:

    Analytical Bible Dictionary

    The other Mary was the mother of James the less (an apostle also known as the son of Alphaeus), but not the mother of Joses, for Joses was the son of Mary the mother of Jesus.
    However there is a relation in that the Mother of James the less could be also the sister of Mary the mother of Jesus.
    James the Lord’s brother is not the same as James the less. He is the brother of Jude, and the brother of Joses.

    The biggest problem you face is in Mat.13:55, both in the context of the passage, which speaks of Christ's immediate family, and could not possibly speaking of anything else just from context alone. And secondly, you have an even bigger problem with the word "adelphos" meaning "brother" a word used almost 350 times in the New Testament and each time it is used it either translated "brother" or "brethren," but never cousin. The NT does have a word for cousin, and it is used at least twice. If the Holy Spirit had wanted us to believe that the persons: James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas, were cousins, then he would have given us that word in the Greek, but He did not. He gave us the word for brother because they were His brothers. Why do Catholics continue to accuse God of lying to us?
    The perpetual virgin mary myth (not doctrine) is just that--a myth.
    DHK
     
  4. Doubting Thomas

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    The other possibility, which has traditional support dating back to at least AD 120, is that the "brothers" were children of Joseph from a previous marriage. These were therefore Jesus' older step-brothers.
     
  5. MikeS

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    If Jesus had other brothers, either full- or half-, then why did Mary go to live with John after the crucifixion? What right did Jesus even have to send His mother to live with a non-relative if Mary had other sons?
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Are Catholics trying to say that there never was a time of intimacy between Mary and Joseph? Was the mother of our Lord that 'frigid' that she completely ignored her husband's human desire to be loved?

    For non-Catholics we have no problem that Mary had other children than Jesus.

    Why the need for "the Perpetual Virginity of Mary?" Other than giving us our precious Savior Jesus Christ, the virgin mother of our Lord had no salvific import.

    Is there a co-Redeemer or co-Redemptrix in the Divine scheme of our salvation? The Bible says no. Was John the Baptist a liar when he said that Jesus is ' . . . the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world? [John 1:29]

    In I Timothy 2:5-6 Who was/is the Redeemer who has made ' . . . Himself a ransom for all . . . ?'

    Is there more than one Advocate in Heaven Who is ' . . . the propitiation for our sins ' . . . . and also for the sins of the whole world?' [I John 2:1-2]

    What is the purpose of dehumanizing the mother of our Lord?
     
  7. MikeS

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    I have another question as well. What are the implications, if Mary had children by Joseph, of her bearing children by two separate fathers. In particular, the father of her first child, Jesus, was not dead (duh!) when she was alleged to have borne the children of another man.

    One more question: what was the significance of Mary being a virgin at all? Why not bear Jesus after she had known Joseph, her lawful husband?
     
  8. MikeS

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    Christians believe that Christ was celibate. What is the purpose of dehumanizing our Lord Himself?
     
  9. thessalonian

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    Rays arguements are made ridiculous every time he prays for someone. They are made ridiculous every time he asks someone to pray for him. For it is in Christ's mediation that we are able to "mediate" by our prayers for those we pray for and those who pray for us have the same ability through his mediation. Certainly we are advocates before God through Christ for those who need our prayers. Ray has been told over and over that the english co- is a translation of a latin word that really means with as in cooperates with Christ's redemptoin. Mary is not another redeemer as many anti-catholics such as Ray allege. She participates in his redemption helping to bring others to him. How does this dehumanize us? How does it dehumanize Mary.

    Blessings
     
  10. MikeS

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    It is to the glory of God that He invites us, His creatures, to participate with Him in His great works: the creation of new human persons, and the guiding of those persons to their eternal Creator, Redeemer, Savior and Family in Heaven. It is becuase of God's great love for us that He grants us a role in these works.
     
  11. MikeS

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    Ignore...got bit by the BB double-posting problem...
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    thessalonian,

    Thessalonian, you, I am sure are a good man, but you remind me of when my Dad and I used to take a Beagle pup out to rabbit hunt for the first time. The pup would get so excited that he/she could not follow the scent and track of the rabbit because of inexperience. You are always selective about what you think is right and what you have no answers for at all.

    You simply blew off three of my first questions. I'll try to put you back on the scent. Here they are one more time:

    Number 1 'Are Catholics trying to say that there never was a time of intimacy between Mary and Joseph?'

    Number 2 'Was the mother of our Lord that 'frigid' that she completely ignored her husband's human desire to be loved?'

    Number 3 'Why the need for "the Perpetual Virginity of Mary?'

    Is this not an attempt to elevate Mary to a very high position/authority in Heaven?

    It must have been difficult times for Joseph when his wife had a 'headache' each evening of his life time. No one really believes this fable; but it sure is an interesting attempt at Christian theology.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    thessalonian,

    Here is one more question you might want to add to your post.

    Ray is saying, 'How does Mary participate in his redemption by helping bring others to Him?'

    You said, 'She participates in his redemption helping to bring others to him.'

    Ray is saying, 'Jesus does not need to be reminded who and where all the sinners are in all of the world. God is omniscient and does not need, nor does He have participants in His redemption. On the Cross He accomplished it once for all when He said, 'It is finished.' He did not say, 'I am finished;' He meant that the perfect plan of salvation was obtained for all of humankind. [I John 2:2]

    Jesus sacrifice on the Cross authorized Him to be the one Mediator. [I Timothy 2:5-6] [I John 2:1-2]

    Jesus said, 'But let your communication be, Yea, yea; {or} Nay, nay. (Yes or No) For whatsoever is more than this comes from evil.'

    Now to keep you on track did Jesus mean that He was the One Mediator in {Book of Timothy} and did He decree that He was the only Advocate/Lawyer before the throne of God to bring sinners to Himself?

    Yes or No. Anything added to His Words comes from the evil one.
     
  14. MikeS

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    Can I play?
    Sure, Mike, join in!
    Thanks!

    Sex is not the only form of intimacy. How are you intimate with God?
    Sex is not the only way to show love. How do you express your love to God?
    Only God would know that, since He caused it to be so, just as He caused it to be revealed to His Church.
    "henceforth all generations will call me blessed"
    It must have been difficult times for Christ to be celibate. Perhaps you can come up with a coarse comment about that as well.
     
  15. MikeS

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    Ray, do you help to bring others to Christ? He doesn't need you to do that, you know. He can find all the sinners of the world just fine, and can plant His Word in their hearts. Christ doesn't need your efforts at all.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Mike S,

    You said, '"henceforth all generations will call me blessed"

    Ray is saying, 'Yes Mary was blessed because out of every woman ever in life, she was chosen to be the virgin who conceived 'the God-Man Jesus Christ,' our eternal Savior. That is quite an honor, don't you think?

    Secondly, I said, 'No one really believes this fable; but it sure is an interesting attempt at Christian theology.' The "Perpetual Virginity of Mary" is a fable and God's Word warns us not to collate these with our Christian belief system and theological understanding.' Read: I Timothy 1:4; II Timothy 4:4; and II Peter 1:15-16. A fable is a fictitious narrative or statement as in a legendary story or supernatural happening. The third meaning in Webster means a falsehood or a lie.

    You said, 'It must have been difficult times for Christ to be celibate. Perhaps you can come up with a coarse comment about that as well.'

    Did not our Lord say that He was tempted in 'all' points and yet without sin? [Hebrews 4:15 & 2:18]

    Jesus my Savior mission to this world was not to have a family. And by the very fact that He did not have a wife, He did not need to deny human relations to a marriage mate. That is as delicately as I can say it in anwer to your proffered comment.
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    Sadly, there are many who call themselves "Christians" who consider the Virgin Birth a "fable" as well. :(
     
  18. MikeS

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    You are assuming that Joseph wanted no part of a celibate union. You have no basis to assume this. If both partners choose to offer their celibacy to our Lord then neither partner is denying anything to the other. As I asked before, is sex the only way to show love and intimacy? How do you show love and intimacy with God?

    I think your (the Protestant) view holds Joseph in low regard, as little more than a carnal creature insisting that his physical needs be satisfied. We Catholics honor St. Joseph for the offering that he made in his marriage to Mary.

    BTW, how come no answer to my question about Mary bearing the children of two living fathers?
     
  19. MikeS

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    I think this question may have gotten buried in the "noise" so I'll ask it again.

    What was God's design in having his Son be borne of a virgin?
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    You said, 'How come no answer to my question about Mary bearing the children of two living fathers?'

    We know that Peter had a mother-in-law because the Bible tell us this. If God wanted you to believe that Mary had a husband who fathered children before Joseph, He would have written it down in His Word, the Bible.
     

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