The Bible gift of Prophecy - that some don't like

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 21, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    James 2 - we are told that "HE WHO said do not commit Adultery also said do not murder" James 2:11.

    Question -- WHO is the "He who said"? God? or Moses?

    In 2Pet 1:20-21 Peter said that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of an individual preference or interpretation - but rather "holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from GOD" - so is Peter arguing that it is the word of the "holy man of old" or the Word of God that is the result?

    In 1Thess 2 Paul argues that when the faithful saints heard the message of Paul then did NOT regard it is "merely the word of a very very wise person named Paul" -- what DID They regard inspired teaching as - according to Paul in 1Thess 2:13.

    13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus.

    Are the words of Peter and Paul taken because they are themselves small gods according to the Bible - or because they are in fact inspired by the One true God?

    Notice what is happening in the church of Corinth as a result of the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy?

    1Cor 14 "each one has a revelation"

    In Numbers 12:6 we are told that "“Hear now My words:
    If there is a prophet among you,
    I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
    I speak to him in a dream."


    Is this a text just for us to deny, run away from, carp about? Ignore?

    Not according to Paul in 2Tim 3:16 and not according to 1Cor 14:1.

    And this gift given to the church is valid - until the 2nd coming - according to Paul.


    Spiritual Gifts


    11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

    12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


    When is that stature met in the church -- according to scripture?


    1 John 3 tells tells us about as much as we can know of that "measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" -



    2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3.


    As does Paul affirm that same point in 1Cor 13.

    12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.



    The New Man

    17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened

    In some popular pulpits the questioning of how the gift of prophecy works is brought up - and yet these key texts dealing with the subject are simply slighted as if we must ignore what the Bible says about it.

    I prefer - "Give me the BIBLE - AND the Words IN the Bible".

    What are your thoughts?

    Has your Bible study into this subject gone beyond popular name-calling so common in the dark ages? I hope so.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 21, 2013
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  2. awaken

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    Do you believe there is a difference in a prophet and prophesy?
     
  3. BobRyan

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    A true prophet is one who has the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy - which in the Numbers 12:6 model -- means direct communication with heaven via a vision or dream given from God.

    A true prophet is one who has more than one or two of these incidents - in fact they are given that ministry by God for the church.

    on the other hand a pagan like Nebuchadnezzar could have one dream here or there - that is given by God - and that does not make him a prophet.

    In 1Cor 14 when they came together "each one has a revelation"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, May 21, 2013
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  4. awaken

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    I do not think the gift of prophecy should be confused with the prophetic office.
    The gift of prophecy speaks unto men for their edification, exhortation and comfort ( 1 Cor. 14:3); it is to edify the Churh (1 Cor. 14:4).

    I do believe that a prophet would of course prophesy, but a person that prophesies wouldn't necessarily be a prophet!

    So I think we agee on this!
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    The office of the prophet/Apostle are BOTH closed down, as we have that more sure prophetic word to us in the scriptures now, as God has said ALL that he will for now concerning His ways/practices/doctrines etc!

    Prophesy in the Church was given to loocal churches to edify/upbuld/encourage them, NOT to grant rvealtion knowledge apart and in addition to His word!

    Apostolic prophets/Apostles moved such by the HS could and didspeak forth revealtions from God, but that was due to their office, common saints who prophesy did NOT do such!
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Which verse in the Bible says "no more communication from God is allowed"?

    I have yet to read it.

    Or were you just making stuff up?

    Here is something interesting from the actual Bible.

    1 Cor 14
    Prophecy and Tongues

    14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

    26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification


    ----------------

    not much there about desiring to be "an Apostle" but spiritual gifts - yes. and Prophecy - yes.

    1Thess 5

    19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.


    Neither here about "reject all".


    Apostles "by definition" were appointed as such by first century Apostles as we see in Acts 1.


    They were not selecting new Apostles even in Paul's day.



    in Christ,


    Bob
     
  7. targus

    targus
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    The problem is that the SDA has never been able to show that Ellen White was ever given a vision or dream by God.

    That plus her visions and dreams are loony to say the least.
     
  8. targus

    targus
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    Bob Ryan, how did you test Ellen White's writings to determine that she is a prophet?

    Is everything that she wrote inspired?

    If not - how do you know which are her writings are inspired and which are not?

    If you know which of her writings are inspired can you produce a list of them - that does not include uninspired writings?

    Or are you just blindly following someone else?
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    prophets in the OT MUST have 100 % accuracy rate, Ellen White fails that test, false prophetess!

    apostles MUST either walked with Christ, seen risen jesus, or associated with Apostles, NONE qualify today!

    We have the sure prophetic word per peter, bible is final and full rvealtion of god to us, NONE other needed nor coming!
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Prophets in ALL of the Bible - are prophets.

    There is only gift for that in 1Cor 12 and it is described by God also in Numbers 12:6 where He tells us that He communicates to them in dreams and visions.

    The reason for the 100% accuracy requirement is that the communication/source is from God not from man.

    Several of the Bible tests of a prophet are based on the fact that the communication is from God - and God cannot be in error.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    How was Agabus tested in the NT?

    How was Anna tested in the Gospels?

    How was John the baptizer tested?

    It is all done the same way - the Bible tests of a prophet.

    One of which is found in Is8:20 - they must be tested against the teaching of scripture to see if their words are in harmony with it or if they contradict.

    This is the way that Paul himself was tested in Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were so".


    Paul in the book of Titus quotes from an uninspired source. That does not mean that the letter to Titus is not inspired.

    The Conflict of the Ages series by Ellen White, the Spiritual Gifts series, the 9 volumes of Testimonies to the Church -- Steps to Christ, Christ's Object Lessons. - there is a large volume of material that she wrote in her role as a prophet.

    But most significantly for a Baptist - she claimed to have messages directly from God - sometimes speaking to Angels and sometimes to Christ - that touched on all of the distinctive doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church - (as well as going far beyond that ). Thus as I said before - a Methodist would be forced to conclude that a modern John the Baptist was a false prophet if he insisted that God told him that only believer's baptism and by full water immersion is approved of the Bible and of God. (A few Baptists here have pretended not to get that point - but I think we all know they get it.)

    However that information came after the basic ground work through Bible study had been done in most cases. In a few cases she was given specific information when the Bible study group came to point of split preferences as they worked through a given subject.

    But one example is very helpful - the example of obeying God's Lev 11 statement on food that is edible. Ellen White was against it. And in one instance when someone came to her and suggested that God wanted us to follow that instruction - she simply dismissed the idea saying that if God was really interested in that He would make it known to the church by more than one person.

    Later she had a vision and it was pointed out to her - that she was wrong.

    This happened a few times in her life - where her own personal preference as stated before having a given vision or dream was counter to what God later showed her, and she had to submit on that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, May 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2013
  12. targus

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    And have you used the Bible to test ALL of her writings?


    And that for you is enough to prove that she is a prophet?

    Because she says so?

    That seems to have happened to her a lot. :laugh:

    Doesn't that tell you something?
     
  13. targus

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    So here is what we have so far per Bob Ryan, the resident SDA expert:

    Ellen White was wrong in many of her "inspired" writings.

    Ellen White had visions that "corrected" her previous visions.

    But because Ellen White said that she had visions from God "she MUST be a prophet".

    Bob Ryan knows this because her "visions" are the basis for SDA beliefs.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    She had false doctrines, wrong predictions, so she fails the test!

    At best, she is a prophetess same way Joseph Smith was a prophet!

    Tyhe Revealtion of John from jesus LAST inspired revaltion from god to us, He stopped sending them after John died!
     
  15. BobRyan

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    None of that is true -- but I am not here to stop you from telling stories if you like.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    That is the claim that a Methodist would make about a modern day John the Baptist if in fact he claimed that God showed him in vision that the Bible view of believer's baptism is correct.

    Nothing new there.

    That is why we would not claim the prophet on denomination-A is accepted as such by someone in denomination-B

    Again - just stating the obvious.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Yes - funny thing about sola-scriptura testing - you have to read the Bible to do it. Name-calling alone just does not get one very far at all.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, May 23, 2013
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  18. BobRyan

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    That was enough for me to accept that fact that she was claiming to be a prophet - it was not enough to prove to me that she actually was one.

    However - stopping at that point alone -is sometimes enough for the passer-by that would not care one way or the other if someone had been give a message by God - in these last days.

    In my case I chose to take the next step and find out if she was indeed a prophet.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    It tells me that her visions cut across her own preferences just like they cut across yours and mine at times.

    (I think she first responded to the idea of the vegetarian diet as "rabbit food"' when trying to follow God's instruction on that point.

    Apparently God is not in the business of just telling you what you want to hear all the time.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. targus

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    Bob Ryan, how about an example of how you test Ellen White's writing against Scripture?

    Of the 1856 conference Ellen White declared: "I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.' "

    All who were alive then are now dead.

    None of them were subjects of the "seven last plagues" (whatever that is).

    None of them are alive and remaining on the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.

    What does that tell us about whether or not Ellen White is a prophet?

    Test this prophecy against Scripture.

    As in a school math test... please, show your work. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #20 targus, May 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2013

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