The Bible's Arminian Sequence for salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by BobRyan, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    It is instructive that the Calvinist "expected" sequence for salvation STARTS with REGENERATION and THEN enlightenment and THEN a choice to believe to accept to confess that one is ALREADY born again, Already a child of God, already the new creation even before they "believed".

    In Calvinism it must START with regeneration (born-again ALIVE in Christ, a child of God).

    By contrast the scriptures show the Arminian "expected" sequence that starts with preaching/information and the choice to believe/confess, which then leads to forgiveness and salvation (being a born-again saint).

    Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


    In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
    #1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
    #2. This is a step toward God in righteousness (Born-again New Creation IN Christ)
    #3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

    By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
    #1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
    #2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
    #3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
    #4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

    Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -
    #1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
    #2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
    #3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
    #4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

    What other texts also show this "Expected Arminian" for Salvation?

    Are there ANY that show Calvinism's reverse sequence??

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ June 13, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  2. rc

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    Jeremiah 13:23 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

    Sorry Bob...
     
  3. Paul of Eugene

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    How about

    Rev 22:17

    17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
    NASU

    Sorry rc
     
  4. 4His_glory

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    That is true Paul, but my Bible also says:

    Rm. 9:16
    So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (NKJV)

    This is equally true.

    Sorry Paul
     
  5. whetstone

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    Here is the Calvinistic order of events in salvation:

    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  6. rc

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    "Come" is an imperative. Not indicative.

    Sorry Paul.

    Have an answer to the protasis?....

    If the heart is wicked, it can hear the gospel and all it's commands... come, change, repent, turn, follow me, and WILL always freely CHOOSE NOT to obey those COMMANDS till God changes the heart!
    Ezek. 36.26

    A dead man CAN NOT make himself alive again.

    You DO NOT believe BECAUSE you are not my sheep!
     
  7. BrotherJoe

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    Hello Brother Bob,

    I can not answer your post from a calvinistic perspective as I do not consider myself one! However, I do believe the Bible teaches regeneration precedes faith and would like to address your post.

    YOU: By contrast the scriptures show the Arminian "expected" sequence that starts with preaching/information and the choice to believe/confess, which then leads to forgiveness and salvation (being a born-again saint).

    ME: 2 Timothy 1:10 tells us that God, "hath brought life and immortality TO LIGHT through the gospel:"

    Light illuminates to individuals in dark rooms what is already present, but that they couldnt see. Light does not produce the things that were already there before its arrival, rather it enable the individual to see those that things were already there.

    Moreover, Jesus teaches that belief sfollow eternal life (not the other way around.) No individual can act to believe unless they already first been born to life. Notice the tenses in the following verses.

    1)"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH (I.E. ALREADY POSSESSES) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).

    2)"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ IS (PRESENT TENSE) born of God" (I John 5:1a).

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Just curious - how much FOREKNOWLEDGE does God have according to Calvinism?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    There is some degree of rationalizing going on there but it is workable.

    In John 1 Christ "IS THE LIGHT that comeing INTO The World ENLIGHTENS EVERYone of MANKIND"

    Christ IS the Light. (The NEW thing IS THE LIGHT). Christ ENABLES All mankind to SEE truth and to choose to either accept or reject.

    Notice that the text does not say "AND all those He ENLIGHTENS are saved and later choose to receive HIM" -- the Calvinist sequence is not there.


    And the text for that?

    Missing --

    By Contrast in John 5 we find that first one must HEAR and then one must BELIEVE and then one HAS eternal life...


    1)"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH (I.E. ALREADY POSSESSES) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).


    The Calvinist scenario would be "Everyone that is GIVEN eternal life will then HEAR and then will BELIEVE".

    They could ALSO have said it as "Everyone who hears and believes must first have HAD eternal life because only those WITH eternal life can hear".

    All the nice little Calvinist texts -- are missing.

    2)"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ IS (PRESENT TENSE) born of God" (I John 5:1a).

    They must first BELIEVE and then they are "born of God" the text does not say "The only people that will BELIEVE are those who are already born of God" -- but had it said such a thing - what a nice little Calvinist text it would have made!

    Another "opportunity missed" if there was ever a Calvinist author in scripture trying to make their case.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Just curious - how much FOREKNOWLEDGE does God have according to Calvinism?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Another question to go with that one - "just exactly WHAT did God foreknow about them that results in His predestinating them to become conformed to Christ's image"??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Scene? The NEW EARTH, because the old earth has passed away. Past Salvation, because all who are there were saved to get there! Past Judgment. This scripture cannot be used to refute what BobRyan posted!
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Are you sure you want to refute BobRyan with that OUT OF CONTEXT, verse? Try this:
     
  13. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Bob,

    YOU:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Romans 10
    10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
    11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    ...In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
    #1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
    #2. This is a step toward God in righteousness (Born-again New Creation IN Christ)
    #3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!


    ME: Brother Bob, no doubt belief in the gospel occurs in Romans 10 AND it is also a step toward God in righteousness. However, Romans 10 is talking about conversion not regeneration.

    Becoming justified by faith by believing the gospel is a righteous act we do before God, but does not give one eternal life. Who is the primary example given by Paul in the Bible to illustrate justification by faith? It is not Abraham? Paul writes, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.or what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. " (Romans 4:2-3)

    Paul states Abraham was justified by faith and it was counted for righteousness when he believed God's promise that his descendants would inherit the earth in Genesis 15:6, HOWEVER we know this is NOT when Abraham became born again, but rather when he was justified by faith ! How? Because Hebrews 11:8 tells us Abraham was ALREADY A CHILD OF GOD at least from the time he left the land of UR way back in GENESIS 12. Remember Hebrews 11:8 states, "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." This occured in Genesis 12:1-4, 3 chapters PRIOR to Abraham being justified by faith and righteousness being reckened to him in GENESIS 15 by believing God.

    Also, contrast the language that Paul employs when he describes the CERTAINTY of God bringing about eternal salvation to his elect in Romans 8:28-39,"28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:29-38)


    Contrast this Romans 8 passage with the uncertain language that Paul employs in Romans 10 when he describes gospel conversion which is filled with uncertainty and question marks. "What if some do not hear because of some failure in the human dimension of this equation? What if in hearing, they do not believe and obey? Could that happen? Romans 10 says it can: "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who bath believed our report" (v. 16). Paul proceeds in Romans 10 to prove that Israel willfully rejected the gospel: "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people" (v. 21)." (Gowens, in essay entitled Born Again).

    The uncertainty in language Paul employed in Romans 10 is in deep contrast with Romans 8:29-38 which describes the certainty of God carrying out his plan of eternal salvation. This proves that Paul could not be discussing eternal salvation in chapter 10 or if he was, then he forgot what he just wrote a chapter and a half ago in Romans 8:29-38.

    God bless

    Brother Joe
     
  14. BrotherJoe

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    In Romans 8 scripure tells us that all God calls he justified, however in Romans 10 we read of people w ho are disobedient to the call. We know scripture does not contradict itself. Chapter 8 is talking of the inward call which is certain to produce a response and is from God himself. Chapter 10 is talking about a different call- the gospel conversion call which is not certain to get a response as it is a call that is sent out by man. We must be careful not to confuse the two calls.

    "Compare the following verses: "...the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live" (Jno. 5:25); "...Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts" (Heb. 3:15). Did you notice a similarity between the two? Both verses speak of God's "voice," His call. Now consider the verses again. Do you see a difference between the two? Though both verses assert the fact that God calls, the response to the call is different in the second verse. John 5:25 says that the dead "shall hear" God's voice. That is the language of certainty. Hebrews 3:15, on the contrary, says "if you will hear His voice." That is the language of appeal. Do you notice a difference between the expression "they shall hear" and the phrase "if you will hear"? The difference is the outcome of the call. In John 5:25, the outcome is certain and irresistible ("they shall hear"). In Hebrews 3:15, the outcome is uncertain and vague ("if you will heard. Why is the outcome different? Because the nature of the call is different. John 5:25 is a call from death to life, an effectual call; Hebrews 3:15 is a call to enter into God's rest, a gospel call. Failure to distinguish between the Do will inevitably produce glaring theological inconsistencies." (Gowens, Born Again essay)

    Brother Joe
     
  15. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Bob wrote: What other texts also show this "Expected Arminian" for Salvation?

    Are there ANY that show Calvinism's reverse sequence??


    ME: Brother Bob, to prove regeneration must precede faith I would point you to John the Baptist being regenerated with the Holy Ghost while he was yet a baby in him mother's (Luke 1:15). What caused this if not God's sovereign grace? Also, the theif on the cross. He went from mocking the crucified Christ in one moment (Matt 27:44) to having faith in him the next (Luke 23:42). What caused this if not God's sovereign grace?

    Before Lydia responded to Paul's preaching, the Lord opened her heart. "14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14) What caused this if not God's sovereign grace?

    Finally, before Paul spoke to Cornellious God had already regenerated him. This is evident by his characeter description found in Acts 10:1-4. What caused this if not God's sovereign grace?

    Jesus told us we are all born again in the same way. By the sovereign Spirit of God regenerating us. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)


    God bless you,

    Brother Joe
     
  16. rc

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    Your prescient view fails greatly Bob.

    You are asking the wrong question.... It is WHOM He foreknows ... it is relational, personal not factual. This is why the word foreknows is a VERB and not a noun. In the verb tense it is ALWAYS relational depicting a "intimate love" for one and is NEVER used for a FACTUAL knowing of the future of which knowing a person will DO.
    That foreknowledge is the NOUN.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I asked it both ways. WHAT did God foreknow ABOUT the person or WHAT did HE foreknow in general?

    IF Calvinist are going to argue that some things are not forknown (or some people are a surprise to God etc) --- Then come on out and say it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. rc

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    The emphasis is on God's loving, and there isn't anything in the text that points you to asking the question. The point is, He does it all.
    He forloves, He predestines, He calls, He justifies, He glorifies.

    God knows EVERYTHING, which includes actions in the future. But this verse excludes any basis on WHY He chooses to "Forelove" some and not others.

    "Before I formed you in the womb I KNEW you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Just curious - how much FOREKNOWLEDGE does God have according to Calvinism?

    Another question to go with that one - "just exactly WHAT did God foreknow about them that results in His predestinating them to become conformed to Christ's image"??
    </font>[/QUOTE]Seems like our Calvinist friends want to "gloss over" vs 29 "again" and want to ignore the questions posted here.

    How "instructive".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Oh no wait!! Calvinism "WANTS" to say "God has ALL foreknowledge and foreknows ALL -- but ... but... in vs 29 of Romans 8 that would be a problem for us... so hmmm how to dodge the point... let me see...
     

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