The BIG one

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darren, May 11, 2008.

  1. Darren

    Darren
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    This is an issue I've debated so many times and I've grown so sarcastic about it because of the invaried responses... try to bear with me, and I'll try to do the same.

    Sigh... I didn't know when or how to ever appoarch this here.

    The so called "Sovereignty debate". In truth I haven't heard a more sorry excuse for retorhic in my entire life. No one on my side of this has EVER questioned God's Sovereignty, but only if He has limits far beyond our comprehension, but still there. That's still divine by any definition, but, I can just see what's gonna come next:

    __________________________

    Arguements I've heard elsewhere:

    "Devil! If God's not divine then what, are you saying He's a man?"

    What in the world? Yea, I get this garbage all the time. GOD IS INDEED DIVINE, AND NO ONE SAID HE WASN'T! And I'm sick and tired of fighting ill thought out retorhic made with no consideration to the speaker. God is NOT a man and no one on my side ever alledges so either. Yet the other side constantly accusses us of saying such things. Course, most of the time we're discussed, we're not present except for straw-men.

    "Heritic! If God is not fully omnipotent, He's not God"

    Someone tell me how that passes for a thought out arguement! So let me get this straight, if God can't turn AM radios into pumpkins, He can't possibly be God? Are those who make this arguement that incapable of thinking it through?

    "Blasphemer! You are re-making God in your image!"

    Um, no, I'm not. In fact, by saying God cannot exist but by your definition, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of. In MY image? I'll check, but I'm pretty sure creating, or even fathoming this entire universe in six days, isn't within my power... nope, can't do it.

    "Idiot! The very definition of God is a being of infinite power and knowledge with no limits."

    No it's not. Sorry, but only ever have modern Christians thought that was the definition of God.

    "Simple minded man! If God has His limits, I can't trust Him."

    Who do you think you are? Six days people, SIX DAYS! Jupiter was like an after thought. How big do you think your problems are compared to that?

    "You're a heritic!"

    I might say the same of you, but it's not gonna go anywhere.

    "Heathen!"

    That's an arguement?

    ______________________________



    So, since I'm pretty sure, it doesn't go anywhere, and as you can see I've done it before, can we skip the name calling and rehersed speeches, just this once?!!

    :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
    (Talks to self.) Breath Darren, now settle down. Stop pre-judging, maybe things will be different this time, maybe you'll actually get somewhere... who knows, maybe you'll be proved wrong, or maybe you'll get some people to think about their views at least. Maybe you'll see something besides the less savory side of modern Christians in debate when bringing this up. It's possible right? Unlikely, but possible. Aren't you sometimes even eager to be proven wrong?

    I hate painting myself as a victum, but guess what, this is the way things really are. Is it the way things are here?

    Okay, here goes.




    Why must God be fully, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent?

    Also, yes I am prepared to show why I think the Bible says He is not, but lets start with you, where does it say He is?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Surely you would I agree that I never say "you are not a good person if you dare to ask that question" -- I also never argue "this is a true teaching because we always say it is true" -- are those kinds of answers what you are having angst over?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    omnipresence -

    Ps 139
    7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?[/font]
    8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. [/font]
    9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,[/font]
    10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.[/font]

    All Power
    Mark 14:62 Christ sits at "The right hand of power"
    Eph 1:21 "Far above all authority, power and dominion"
    Luk 1:37 - Nothing is impossible for God
    Jeremiah 32:17
    ' Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,
    Jeremiah 32:27
    "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"



    All knowing
    Is 46:10 delcaring the end from the beginning
    Is 41:22-23 God's challenge to all false gods to "predict what will happen" as he can do.
    Is 44:7 anyone who claims to be like God should be able to tell us "the things that are coming"
     
    #3 BobRyan, May 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2008
  4. 4His_glory

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    He is because the Bible says He is. If you wish to not accept Scripture for what it says then you can believe whatever you want to believe. But the God of the Bible is described in no uncertain terms as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

    BobRayn posted some good verses to show this and I do not have the time to do so now. But perhaps latter I will be able to explain more.
     
  5. rbell

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    Darren, no name calling here...but if you do not believe God is all-powerful, then He is not God. You should refer to the deity you are describing as a "god"--because you are not describing the God of the Bible.

    In my opinion, if you hold to a belief that God is not all-powerful and all-knowing and all-present, then your "god" is limited, and is not Lord of all. If this is truly your view, then your "god" can be bested by other things, because your "god" is not greater than all other. One definition I heard of God one time was "that of which nothing greater can be conceived." No definition can encompass the Almighty...but I cannot begin to tell you how far off base you are.

    In my opinion, you hold to a heretical belief--if you believe God isn't all-powerful, etc. You leave yourself no basis to believe in the atonement, resurrection, victory over sin and death, etc.

    If this is truly your view, then you have turned your back on the fundamentals of the faith, and in my opinion, you do not espouse Christianity.

    Sorry. Like I said...no name-calling here....but quite honestly, you're trying to play the victim, and I've got to say: Heresy is heresy...whether you're a "victim" of name-calling or not.
     
  6. mrtumnus

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    Darren, I would like to understand your reasons for believing the way you do. Thanks.
     
  7. EdSutton

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    "'Lizabeth! It's the BIG one! I'm a-comin' to join you, Honey!" - Fred Sanford
     
  8. donnA

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    Who is able to limit God. In order for Him to be limited there has to be someone over Him.
    If the bible says sovereign, why can't people believe it.


    This is simply lunacy.



    rbell=
    This would not be the bible God, his 'god' doesn't exsist then.
    Apparently if you don't like the bible God, you make one up.
     
  9. Andre

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    Darren - I think that I agree with you. Shocked? Disappointed? :wavey:
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    No surprise at all.
     
  11. Darren

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    First let me address theory, so you all know where I'm coming from. YES, I WILL GET TO THE SCRIPTURE OF THIS SOON.

    But if you all don't know what I'm getting at, of what use would that be? I'll proceed, seeing as I see possibility. :praying:

    I believe in an awsome God, full of power, wisdom and knowledge, far beyond any to even fathom. He who created the universe, He who's name the Oceans themselves bow before. He who broke the power of sin, rose HIMSELF from the dead. He who healed the sick, cured the insane, casted out demons. He who has no superior nor equal. From age to age He shall be forever, the same in intent, power and wisdom. Beyond all, above all, over all and master of everything.

    Does that sound like I'm questioning Sovereignty?

    Now to the meat with a bitter taste.

    The universe is not perfect. If God could huff and puff and just make it better, He undoubtably would. He wants for none to suffer, THAT is God. However, such will not happen. Even when the world once again becomes whole, it will not be the result of a hiccup, but the result of much destruction, in a terrifying final purifying. Perhaps even the majority of mankind will burn for all eternity, dead to their transgressions, never to be saved. Is this what God truely wanted from the begining? To destroy His creation in a state of utter hopelessness? Only a fool cannot taste the foulness of such an assumption.

    God wants better, but it is not better. What conclusion must we then draw? An omnipotent being is NOT limited. An omnipotent being waits for nothing, needs nothing and gets what it wants, when it wants. Only a being limited can be diprived of it's desires. God created Satan, no doubt, to be great in His kingdom, not to be His foe for the rest of time.

    For a little more, read here:
    http://www.freewebs.com/phantomwolf/case_for_active_god_theology.htm

    ________________________


    Now for a few replies:

    To Andre... then care to lend and hand in the presentation? It should be obvious now whether or not we do agree.

    ____________________________

    That is part of my frustration. Mostly its stiff necked individuals. Right or wrong, no one ever listens to them for one supreme reason, they don't listen in return. Most of the arguements I quoted have no place in this debate and barely make sense. But individuals believe that since THEY make these arguements for THIS cause, that's all okay. It's not.

    I hope this really does go different.




    Psalm 139 is of great contention to both sides. It talks of God as seaching and discerning, but also of simply knowing as if for no reason. I tried to explain it in my article, please ask for more if you don't see what I mean.

    Jerimiah 32, discusses are great prophecy given to Jeremiah. One about the fall of Isreal to Babylon and also about it eventual restoration. The quoted text was said easly in an expressive manner, since that is the natural. If not so, may I ask why more was said to show God's great power?

    I suppose it's unfair, but I must point out, that phrases like "nothing beyond my power" "nothing you cannot do" "almighty" are all NATURALLY expressive. It is then actually rather hard to procliam them absolutely literal, and hard to prove what context would be required for them to be literal. You realize, these phrases are used all the time in all languages, and 99.9% of the time, expressively.

    Isaiah 46 is all about God's supremicy. However:

    9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.




    Notice, declare to whom? US! Does He declare ALL things to us? Sorry but declaring SOME things does not require knowledge of ALL things.

    The idols were silent for they were false. Tis a simple to predict the future better than a block of wood. 21-24 is better context This was said to show the falseness of these idols. I will however point out, the whole chapter this is drawn from, does discuss God's soveriegnty, so this is valid to the issue, but not in the manner you are using it.


    Context verses 7-23. This passage is meant to mock idol worshipers and this verse calls out false human deities (so it seems, a call to men who believed they were gods).


    _____________________________

    That is the point of contention here, does it?

    Same to you.

    Those terms aren't even IN the Bible. We made them up. Only terms to that effect are printed.

    I know it seems an unfair challenge, but the challenge is to prove they are not expressive terms, as is natural, but literal, as is actually unusual, considering the terms.

    _____________________________



    I know it is insulting to say this, but it has to be said. That is NOT a logical arguement AT ALL.

    Where to begin? Seriously... I'm mean this all with no anger or malice, but understand, this is the most plain way to put things:

    Who do you think you are? Indeed, must God be all powerful to be your God? What do you think man is? Must God be omnipotent to rule it? We men, as a species could be ruled by a gaint worm. Wouldn't it be fitting? A worm to rule worms? What are we that God should even consider us? It is not He who need to be worthy to rule us, it is us, barely worthy to be ruled.

    Or is it a question of ability? Ability to what? Make pink dragons? I suppose no doubt He could, but it's entirely irrelivent to who and what He IS.

    Or perhaps, you think He should be able to make all things better... then why doesn't He just do that?

    Six day creation... I hate to put it this way... but beat that. Probably the main reason it was done in only six days was to show His incredible power.

    Good, cause when you wrote this, you had no idea what my definition was.

    And thus it starts. I'm a heritic eh? I could say the same of you, but where would it get us? And so you say, God must be able to say how many fleas are on every dog and how that number will increase in fifty years in order to atone for your sins, but I see little need for that.

    Rather- modern traditional faith.

    I feel no pitty for myself, worry not, however, it is frustrating that people feel no need to even think about their arguements with this stuff... hopefully you're an exception this time. I didn't want to single you out, but these are NOT good arguements.

    ______________________

    How is any king sovereign?

    Yes. But who's god is made up? God is God, and His word defines Him, not me, not you.
    ______________________________



    Do I sense unnecessary sarcasm?
     
    #11 Darren, May 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2008
  12. Crabtownboy

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    God has limited himself in that:

    1. God will not lie.
    2. God will not decieve.
    3. God will not break a covenant.

    There are other limitations God has placed on himself and I am sure you can think of others.
    :godisgood:
     
  13. Darren

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    Excellent point.

    Actually, I think those are expressive as well. Might I suppose that God can lie, but won't. How might I suppose that? Think of who God is.

    How many of you have children. If you gave your kid a knife, would he go on a killing spree, even if he could? "No, of course not. There's no way." Is what most parents will say. I suppose then you see my reasoning. It is contrary to who that child is to murder.

    It is contrary to who God is to lie. God is like the essence of goodness, and as such, will never do evil.

    I will point this out. It is OFTEN that the Bible says God has limits or gives a pretty solid impression of such, but these passages are suppose to be figurative at best, though the way they are printed such is not natural. Then we're suppose to take terms that are naturally expressive, and think of them and completely literal.

    Can you think of any passages that I might be refering to. I'll bring them up tomorrow.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    God is sovereign -- He can choose a universe of intelligent beings programmed like robots to obey- or a universe based on free will. It is up to Him. He "chooses free will".

    God can revoke his choice in that area at any moment -- but chooses not to.

    If you want finite beings to "make choices" then things have to be "explained" as we see in Job 1 and 2.

    You are attributing "less power" to God because He sovereignly "chooses" to create and sustain a "free will" universe instead of a "robot universe" in which He could do all things could be done instantly and without concern for others, limited only by His infinite power.

    While the robot-model does allow for more demonstration of instant power and truly is only limited by Power - the "free will system" is a voluntary "limit" that He sets on Himself as Sovereign and Law Giver that must still "arrange events" such that free will intelligent beings can exist in the best possible state.

    In Gethsemane Jesus prays to the Father "With you ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE -- please let this cup pass from me". Obviously God is "powerful enough" to stomp on a few Romans and a Jewish mob. The limit is not "power". God is "intelligent" enough to know HOW to stomp on a few Romans and a Jewish Mob -- the question is not knowledge or Wisdom. God is "able to be PRESENT" sufficiently to stomp on a few Romans and a Jewish mob -- the limit is not PRESENCE.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, May 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2008
  15. Darren

    Darren
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    One of the best arguemets for limits is that Jesus IN FACT, did not want to die. But He had a reason greater than His own desire. Something took priority. But how can that be? In all His power, could He not have simply snapped His fingers and declared forgiveness? But no, for us humans, that He refused to live without, He saw that He needed to lay down His life. Simply becuase He rose, does not mean He did not still sacrifice. Far be it from anyone, to dishonor that sacrifice declaring it, one of the "many" ways it could have happened. It was the only way.



    Here is my contention. Even so as you alledge this is all because of man's free will, I would first point out that the doctrines that give rise to this debate also give rise to the Arminianistic and Calvinistic doctrines. Both doctrines say that God alone CONTROLS all. Aminianism says man, by some strange definition, can still choose, despite God's control, though he cannot choose outside of it. Then we are robots still.

    So will I see you say that God in fact does NOT control us? I suppose there we would agree, and happily so. Somehow though, I doubt you intended to take away the doctrine of absolute control in favor of special soveriegnty. Is God not in control... is that expressive?



    I see this as not simple matter. You see, you have a double bladed sword in your hand. The theology of special soveriengty (seems a good name for it, since this is NOT the definition of soverienty and everyone knows it) insists on NO limits. So God can create a world of free willing entities which will sin... could He not also have created such a universe with the same entities, but that would not sin? Could He not do so and lose nothing? Can He not have everything He wants? (Have His cake and eat it to, as the saying goes.)

    I suppose in the end, any way you show this to be a worthy creation, I can simply fire back that it could be better and needs to be better, and you will have to agree for such is fact. But the universe is NOT better. The universe is NOT good. The creation has fallen to evil, not because of God's will, but I alledge in spite of it. God desired a good and perfect universe, such did not occur.

    If you tell me, that only free willing entities are of any true value, you are correct. But if you then alledge that they had to fall in order to be free willing, I say... didn't you just declare a limit? Didn't you just give terms that had to be met?

    The only reason for reason is limitation, don't you see? Otherwise its simply a matter of what one wants. God wants free willing beings to live with: DONE. God wants a good and perfect universe: DONE. God wants them both and a universe with no suffering only from age to age better things to come: DONE, DONE AND DONE!

    But such is not done, is it? Our wills are corrupted and weak. Our world is dead and dying. The once perfect creation of God, will soon be destroyed. (Yes, it will be remade, and I look forward to that. Course that to will mean much suffering is at hand. Do you not remember, what else will happen at the restoration...) God behaves with reason and purpose, not simply based upon desire. A god whom simply does as he pleases is alien to us.
     
  16. steaver

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    Not quite true. He is not limited by any other source except Himself. An omnipotent being having all power and authority would then by definition have the power to limit Himself in anyway He chooses. If He did not have the power to limit Himself then He would not be omnipotent.

    Here is the definition of "omnipotent"....."adj. Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful."

    Just because God chooses to use His omnipotence how and when He wants does not mean God is not omnipotent.

    God has choosen to limit Himself within the parameters of His Own Word. God will not do anything outside of what He has written before the foundation of the world, else He be found a liar. Maybe this is why you think God is not omnipotent. He is, he has chosen to work within His Own Word. A detail an omnipotent being does have.

    Therefore it is a true statement to say God is "omnipotent".

    Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    Omnipotence means God has the power to set parameters and the power to limit Himself to His Word.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  17. Darren

    Darren
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    My contention is EXACTLY true and your definition only proves it. An Omnipotent being, by definition, has NO limits.

    In a minute I'll get to what you meant, and I mean not to twist it, please just read. You just said He is limited. I'm trying to show we actaully are working from a similar point of reference. I believe the limits are real, you believe they are self imposed, but we don't disagree they are there. Otherwise, the actions of God simply don't make sense.

    Though I don't think it makes sense either, to self impose limits, nor do I see much proof of that.

    NIV
    for you have exalted above all things
    your name and your word.

    You're usage isn't wrong, it just appears you didn't understand what was being said. It was about God's soveriegnty (context chapter 138) but it was not intended to say that God's word was placed above Himself.


    But answer me this. We humans are the most important things in the universe to God, for nothing else did He give His only Son. Why, if He loved us so much, would He impose on Himself limits, that would be to our detriment and cause our ultimate destruction?

    He knew we would sin, and made it so He couldn't stop us. He knew we would go to hell, and made it so He could not save most of us. Then, after condemning us Himself so, He died to save us all... actually only a few of us, considering what I just said (course that right there contradicts scripture).

    Does that even make sense? Have I made a straw man? I don't think so, but have I?
     
  18. Darren

    Darren
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    Genesis 18:22-23 (context Genesis 18-19:29)
    Exodus 4:24-26 (context Exodus 4:18-31)
    Exodus 32:1-14 (context Exodus 32)
    Genesis 18:21 (more specific reference to what I have already mentioned)
    Psalm 139:1-3 (context Psalm 139)
    Genesis 33:18-20 (context Genesis 33:7-20)
    Genesis 4:3-10 (context Genesis 4:1-16) (I'm not refering to God's literal questions, to them He already knew the answers, that goes without saying, just notice the tone in which they are said.)
    Genesis 18:9 (context Genesis 18:1-10)
    Mark 5:30-32 (context Mark 5:21-34)
    Genesis 22:1-12 (context... that is context)
    Jeremiah 18:1-10 (context Jeremiah 18: 1-17)
    Psalm 81: 8-16 (contest Psalm 81)
    2 Cronicles 12: 1-12 (already in context)
    1 Samuel 15: 10-11, 35 (context 1 Samuel 15)
    Matthew 26: 36-46 (already in context)

    Whee! 15 passages so far. No those aren't by any means the only ones, but I think they cover everything. I think I better stop now though, seeing as the scroll bar is starting to move just list all of the passages. Sorry to have unloaded the dump truck here, but you can do the same.

    In those passages, God does the following: changes His mind, negotiates, grieves His own descisions, discovers, learns, searches, acts based on a lack of knowledge, tests his servants, acts indignant, acts based on limitations -unable to get what He wants without doing certain things- even beggs not to do something He knows He has to.

    Hey Andre, care to throw in a few more passages?

     
  19. DHK

    DHK
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    Perhaps he does none of those things.
    Do you know and understand what an anthropormorphism is?
     
  20. Don

    Don
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    You know, you *really* remind me of those 'ol boys over at TheologyOnline...care to confirm?
     

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