"The Call of God" OR "The Calls of God?"

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, May 8, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    Even Calvinists admit that there is a general call of God through the gospel that goes out to all mankind.

    But they teach that this call is ineffective and unpowerful without a second calling. This second call is inward, secret, spiritual, and irresistable.

    The first call without the second call is useless to all who hear it. In fact, the first call of the gospel is powerless in Calvinism's system. The Bible clearly states that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation yet Calvinists make the gospel void of any power by teaching that the Holy Spirit must produce a second calling to go along with the first.

    Can someone come to God without the gospel? No.

    Would we have the gospel without the work of the Holy Spirit? No.

    So we, as Arminians, can accurately say that it is the Holy Spirit's calling through the gospel message that enables us to come to him, but there is no need to say the the Holy Spirit produces this second irresisable calling to go along with His first call in order for man to be enabled, especially since scripture never teaches this. Calvinists just assume that it must be so because it supports their premise. They apply passages that refer to God's calling both Jewish and Gentiles believers and they assume this calling is unique only to those who respond to the call, which is absurd.

    Lets say I was a black civil rights leader who historically only invited blacks to my rallies. One day I decided to call and invite all people both blacks and whites. 500 people show up (400 whites and only 100 blacks). This would be quite a shock and a huge change to what would have been expected, right?

    When reporting on this one might say, "The people who attended the rally were called and invited, both the blacks and whites." But this in no way would negate the fact that I had invited everyone. It would just be emphasizing the fact that I had called and invited whites and blacks and not just blacks as would be expected. It would also be showing that the whites showing up at the rally was not unwelcomed as many may have thought.

    The same is true in the 1st century church. Gentiles were unwelcome to being apart of the things of God, yet the Gentiles were responding to the gospel in droves while the Israelites, for the most part, were presecuting the church. This is backwards to what would have been expected. So, to validate the Gentiles coming to Christ while most Israel was rejecting him Paul often emphasized the fact that the Gentiles were chosen by God from before the foundation of the world. Called by God to repentance and faith. And that they too were 'predestined' to adoption as sons just as the Israelites were. Calvinists mistaken these passages as proof texts that individuals are chosen, called, predestined and elected to the neglect of others. The truth is all are chosen to hear the message and called by God through the gospel. All who believe that message have been predestined to be adopted as sons, even the Gentiles.
     
  2. Yelsew

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    I can assure you that any call of God that rescues even one soul is as powerful and effective as God himself is!
     
  3. romanbear

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    Hi Bro Bill;
    I agree with most of what you said except in two points.
    1. I'm not an Arminian I'm just a born-again Christian. There are some things that Arminnius taught that I do not agree with.
    2. While I have to admit that something's and men are predestined after acceptance of Christ. I do not believe that all are predestined.

    Predestination alone means we have no choice and this is wrong, Even Jonah had a choice to go to Nineveh. He first rejected the will of God. and was swallowed by a fish. he also changed his mind when he realized that he could die if he didn't. Does this mean he was predestine to go to Nineveh? No He could have chosen death and stayed where he was.

    I believe that predestination only comes into effect when we are agreeable to it. God may attempt to change our minds but will not interfere with our will.
    Romanbear

    P.S. Bro Bill I don't know how this post got here or what to do about where it goes but this is clearly not the thread that I intended it for
    I must have did something Romanbear

    [ May 08, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    Brother Bill,

    Since the general call is never affective in the heart of the non-elect sinners why did God make it a call when He Himself knows that He is going to be ineffecutal in His undertaking? In short, why does God make a Calvinistic general call, when it will never work? The Lord does not minister in this alleged manner.

    Let's admit it, it is only a ploy to plug up the holes of Calvinistic theology.

    John 3:16 sure sounds like one general call to me.
     
  5. ezrider

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    here's another opinion from in touch... just a thought......

    The Call of God
    1 Samuel 3:1-21

    When you hear the phrase, “call of God,” what comes to mind? For many people, it refers only to God’s call upon the lives of professional ministers. This could not be further from the truth! God issues no fewer than four specific calls to every single believer.

    First, we are given the call to salvation. This is how God establishes a personal relationship with us. Today’s passage shows the poignant way in which God introduced Himself to young Samuel. He also reveals Himself to each of us today. (Romans 1:20)

    Second, all believers experience the call to sanctification. (Leviticus 11:44a) This is God’s call for His children to experience godly living. “Sanctification” can be defined as being set apart—or made holy—for the purposes of God.

    Third, God calls us to service. Ephesians 2:10 clearly reminds us that all believers—not just pastors—are called to serve. Every one of us was “created in Christ Jesus for good works.” This means that each of us has a very specific and important job to do.

    Fourth, we all have the call to accountability. The Bible teaches that each of us will one day stand before God and give an account of our life. This is not a call to be feared if we are presently seeking to walk in His will. Rather, it will be a time of great reward and rejoicing.

    Make no mistake—our heavenly Father still speaks to His people. As you read His Word today, ask Him to make His call in your life clear.

    -in touch-
     
  6. romanbear

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    Welcome ezrider;
    I'm well aquainted with the teaching of Chales Stanley have watched him for years. But tell me do you believe that there is an effectual call that man cannot resist/
    Romanbear
     
  7. William C

    William C
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    Ray, you're correct. When I was a Calvinists I didn't think of it this way. I thought of the non-elect not being able to understand the general call of the gospel unless they were first irresistably called by the Holy Spirit. I didn't see that the gospel was the calling of the Holy Spirit. I thought of them as two independant calls. The Bible only speaks of one calling and its through the preaching of the word.

    If the Calvinists would look at the order of events in Romans 10 they could see that there is only one called mentioned:

    13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. 14 But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent?

    The CALL is the CALL that comes from the mouth of a preacher. Where does the Holy Spirit come in?

    Who sent and even compelled the preacher to preach?

    Who inspired the preachers words?

    The Holy Spirit. This shows that the work of the Holy Spirit in calling is done through man, not through some secret inward calling as Calvinists presume.
     
  8. ezrider

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    i don't claim to be real smart on this kinda stuff mr. romanbear, just know one thing, i'm going to uganda in a month with my church, have been running for over 20 yrs, tried not to get involved with God anymore, but when the chips were put down, i was left with no excuses anymore, God has said go! in no uncertain terms, i always asked the learned ones what the magical answer was, no one would tell me, there isn't really an answer, to the call, it's like falling in love as far as i can tell, you just know it. i know i'm convinced, i have no way to do this on my own, but a way has been made, so good luck on ya'll's topic, help you when i can, see you, God bless & God speed to all......
     
  9. ezrider

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    ooops sorry to many buttons [​IMG] :D
     
  10. romanbear

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    Hi Bro Bill;
    There is only one call to salvation which was my point on another post that the term effectual call is not Biblical. A call to Salvation is either effectual or it isn't, but still only one call to Salvation. Your right there is only one call not two to the same Salvation. I don't think I have ever read anything in God's word that there are more than one or a secret one
    Romanbear
     
  11. Frogman

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    Ray, you're correct. When I was a Calvinists I didn't think of it this way. I thought of the non-elect not being able to understand the general call of the gospel unless they were first irresistably called by the Holy Spirit. I didn't see that the gospel was the calling of the Holy Spirit. I thought of them as two independant calls. The Bible only speaks of one calling and its through the preaching of the word.

    If the Calvinists would look at the order of events in Romans 10 they could see that there is only one called mentioned:

    13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. 14 But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent?

    The CALL is the CALL that comes from the mouth of a preacher. Where does the Holy Spirit come in?

    Who sent and even compelled the preacher to preach?

    Who inspired the preachers words?

    The Holy Spirit. This shows that the work of the Holy Spirit in calling is done through man, not through some secret inward calling as Calvinists presume.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think Calvinists presume this, as you suspect. But I think you are in error to think that God is unjust for electing some, but not others, then to say that unless a man preaches the Gospel that men cannot be saved, this is denying the justice of God to those who are in totalitarian societies in which the borders are locked down against the entrance of the Gospel, the Bible plainly says the word of God is not bound, yet you want to bind it to the obedience of a sinful creature who prior to regenerative grace was a child of disobedience?

    Unless the Spirit operates in the 'glorified' sermon, there yet is no more spoken that words. The Spirit operates through the Sovereign Grace of God and quickens who the Father has given him to do so, if not, then the Spirit is operating outside the will of God and is in rebellion himself. Too many try to put time and geographic restrictions on God; Is this biblical? If you think it is read Ps. 139.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. Frogman

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    From your post Bro. Bill, we find here a declaration and a warning as well...imagine that.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. William C

    William C
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    Would you presume to believe that a man can be saved apart from the preaching or hearing of the Word?

    You missed one point: Men are compelled to preach. (See Jonah)

    I don't think your understanding me Dallas. The words of the scripture are not mere sermons, they are inspired by the Holy Spirit (I know you agree). The power of our sermons today come from preaching those words, not our own.

    You are still looking at this the way that I used to. I used to think that a man can get up a preach a sermon based on scripture and the Holy Spirit just not work. That is wrong! If a man preaches the words of God it is a work of the Spirit, because it is the words of the Spirit. The Spirit is in the Word because the Word is the Spirit. The Gospel is the Power. Its not some extra independant working of the Holy Spirit that gives a man power in his sermon, it is a sermon that is based upon the Word that gives it the power. Make Sense?
     
  14. Frogman

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    'hearing' requires not a physical man to preach.

    the power that is in the inspired word of God is not in the sweet stories that are told from many pulpits today, there is little power where the doctrines of God are shunned for the fear of men; there can be no real power in the man preaching the word of God where he fears to proclaim the truth that salvation is God's work, it is eternal, and continue in the preaching and teaching of the faith once delivered. there is little or no power in a sermon worked up all week, to last a designated 20-30 minutes following the recommendation that most men's attention is lost in the first fifteen minutes, preaching is by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit that moved Stephen to declare the Gospel even in the face of death, no, that power is not found among men where the Grace of God is denied, where the sermon is neatly outlined, where each point is delivered and a few extra moments on any throws off the entire church bulletin. The gospel is the power of GOD not of man: Romans 1:16  ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    I thought the gospel was to feed sheep... Jesus must have felt it was important... He admonished Peter three times to do it... Why three times?... Simon son of Jonas... the Father says... Feed my lambs!... Simon son of Jonas... the Son says... Feed my sheep!... The Holy Ghost says... Feed my sheep!... He never told him to make one!... Question does Simon go to the sheep or does God bring the sheep to Simon?... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  16. William C

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    'hearing' requires not a physical man to preach.

    the power that is in the inspired word of God is not in the sweet stories that are told from many pulpits today, there is little power where the doctrines of God are shunned for the fear of men; there can be no real power in the man preaching the word of God where he fears to proclaim the truth that salvation is God's work, it is eternal, and continue in the preaching and teaching of the faith once delivered. there is little or no power in a sermon worked up all week, to last a designated 20-30 minutes following the recommendation that most men's attention is lost in the first fifteen minutes, preaching is by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit that moved Stephen to declare the Gospel even in the face of death, no, that power is not found among men where the Grace of God is denied, where the sermon is neatly outlined, where each point is delivered and a few extra moments on any throws off the entire church bulletin. The gospel is the power of GOD not of man: Romans 1:16  ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Bro. Dallas
    </font>[/QUOTE]Surely you are not saying that John Wesley's sermons had no power because he wasn't a Calvinist, are you?

    I'm not trying to argue that man has the power. I am arguing that the power is in the words of the gospel of which man has been given.
     
  17. William C

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    "..go and make disciples of all nations."
     
  18. Frogman

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    Consider this statement and all that is said within it. What is a disciple?

    Bro. Dalllas
     
  19. KenH

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    A disciple in this context is one who follows Jesus in His teaching and example. Obviously, one person cannot make another person follow Jesus' teaching and example. That can only be accomplished by the transforming work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a man.
     
  20. William C

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    Consider this statement and all that is said within it. What is a disciple?
    </font>[/QUOTE]The same is true of the term sheep. What is a sheep?
     

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