The Calvinist Way Of "Interpreting" The Bible

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    The Calvinists argue that man's will plays no part in salvation. When shown that the Bible explicitly says that human will does play a part in salvation, the Calvinist evades it by asserting that God is the one who makes man's will what it is.

    The Calvinists argue that election is not conditioned on faith. When shown that the Bible explicitly says that faith does play a part in salvation, the Calvinist evades it by asserting that God is the one who gives one man faith and witholds it from another.

    The Calvinists argue (and rightly so) that salvation is not by good works. When deceived by an Arminian into thinking that the Scriptures do condition salvation on good works, the Calvinist evades it by asserting that God is the one who makes us do the good works necessary for salvation.

    In short, it doesn't matter if you could prove that the Bible said you had to stand on your head in a corner for two hours in order to be saved, the Calvinists would simply assert that God predestinated certain people to do so.

    In other words, Calvinists subjugate everything in the Bible to their erroneous concept of predestination. Every command to repent, every call to believe, every warning against hell, every expression of God's love for humanity becomes a meaningless plaititude, because of the pre-conceived notion that God has already predestinated everything that will come to pass.

    I know they will not like this characterization, but that is the Calvinist method of interpreting the Bible laid bare.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    This should be interesting... :cool: (pulls up chair and starts eating popcorn)
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Mark;
    The idea they have to be elected first in order to be saved is just sheer ignorance.They claim that Christ died for only a few elect which just isn't true.
    My Proof it isn't true;
    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    This verse they can't get around..

    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     
  4. qwerty

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    I have done some study on the attributes of God (Who is Father, Son -the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit).

    I have never read what Calvinists say specifically about the attributes of God.

    But from I read on this forum, and other forums, and writings of Calvinists, what I gather is this:

    The Calvinist serves a God who has one attribute; which is the attribute of being sovereign.

    Worshipping a God with one primary and major attribute can lead to false doctrine, especially if the attribute you are worshipping is not the primary and major attribute that the Living God has truly revealed.

    In case you are interested, the primary and major attribute that the Living God has revealed about Himself in the scriptures is LOVE.

    What I also see is that the Calvinist does not understand is the place of the Lord Jesus.

    If the Calvinist were correct about God having one primary and major attribute, that being sovereignty, then their teachings and writings would be full of content about the Lord Jesus Christ, because He is the One who is referred to as Sovereign Lord.

    Let’s see what the scriptures tell us about our Sovereign Lord.

    Acts 4: 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
    Who is this Sovereign Lord? The Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
    Who is this Sovereign Lord? The Lord Jesus Christ.

    JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
    Who is this Sovereign Lord? The Lord Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
    Who is this Sovereign Lord? The Lord Jesus Christ.

    And finally, here is the Apostle Paul’s definitive statement about the Lord Jesus. You can see from this that Jesus is given the place of the Sovereign.

    COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    God has revealed Himself as a Divine Being, and He has told us that He is Father, Son – The Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit; eternally equal and eternally existent.

    If we would want to exalt one attribute above any of the others (which is not a great idea, because it leads to false doctrine and false worship), then we would want to exalt the attribute that God Himself has shown us is the one attribute that He has clearly set forth as the one attribute that He wants to known by; and that is LOVE.

    But the Living God wants to worshipped in a way that exalts the entirety of His being, not just one attribute.

    John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

    The results of worshipping a God with the one primary and major attribute being sovereignty results in what is known as Calvinism.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    There is no "primary attribute" per se. God is what is attributes are. One is not emphasized more than another. Usually what we say is that God has a fundamental, or governing attribute. It is his holiness.
     
  6. timothy27

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    Arminians cry foul when they have been shown that their arguments are false and do not fall into scripture. They revert to childish name calling when their pride is called into question. And do not even try to tell them they can make spiritual decisions for themselves, they just might demand God thank them for choosing Him, as if he should be grateful.

    Arminians belittle God's knowledge to predestine , to a spectator sitting on the side line having to look into the future not knowing what is going to happen, yet hoping, and I am sure Arminians believe waiting to thank them for making the right decision.

    God can knock, and knock, and knock, and knock, but is powerless unless they open the door.


    In the olympics of salvation God come in second place and man sit on the highest pedestal.

    Thank the Lord he is my Gold medal winner and sits where he rightfully desreves.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    Which of these issues are you talking about? You start off with a line about election not being conditioned on faith. BUt you continue with a line about Calvinists not believing that faith plays a part in salvation.

    As you should know, CAlvinists believes that election is not conditioned on faith, and they believe that faith does play a role in salvation.

    It looks to me like you are confusing election and salvation. They are not the same. Faith can play a role in the latter, while not playing a role in the former.
     
  8. Robert J Hutton

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    I have every respect for our Calvinist brethren and esteem them highly for love's sake; but I have yet to read a credible interpretation of 1st Tim 2 v 4 other than accepting what it says viz. That God desires the salvation of all people.

    Kind regards to all

    Bob
     
  9. timothy27

    timothy27
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    Robert, you have to ask if God desire it then why are all not saved? God can desire one thing and will another.
     
  10. Timtoolman

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    This is all whining, nothing has been shown! Otherwise you wouldn't have most of christiandom denying the teachings of John Calvin.
    I am willing to admitt that I don't understand it all or am right but I know one thing for sure! Followers of John Cavlin's teachings AIN'T got it right either!

    IN Christ,
    Tim
     
  11. timothy27

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    Timtoolman this was a response to the OP, you have just proved my point, it is okay for them to go off topic and "baby whine" but they have just as big a log in their own eyes, both sides do it only the arminians do it more often, at least from what I have noticed.
     
  12. Robert J Hutton

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    Reply to our brother Timothy27:

    How can God desire one thing and will another? It is that kind of statement that defies logic. I don't mean this to be unkind and I esteem you highly as a brother, but how can you believe that you can desire one thing and will another??

    Kind regards to you and all the brethren.

    Bob
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    Timothy27,

    Arminians also believe as Calvinists do that God knows everything. He bases His election on what He already knows will be the decision of each sinner as to receiving of rejecting His grace and Him. Our Biblical Election is based on God's Foreknowledge, meaning He has always known our response to His most powerful call to salvation.

    You were right when you said that He knocks at the hearts door. Only receiving Jesus as Savior insures our sure hope of everlasting life.

    You are also right that the 'Gold Metal Winner' is Jesus who sits in sovereign control over human history and is saying 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall/will be saved.'[Acts 16:31].

    It is most interesting that the 'will' keeps lifting up it head in Biblical truth [Revelation 22:17 f. Just sweep these verses under Calvin's robe and no one will know they are in the N.T.

    The man or woman must 'open' the door . . .
    'Dr. A.T. Robertson the Baptist Greek scholar says,
    'opens' is the Greek word, {anoixei} Condition of third class with [ean tis akousei kai (ingressive) active subjunctive . . . ' [End of Robertson's quote].

    The active agent opening the door is a human agent and not the Divine Lord. He only enters the sinner's life by invitation.

    Ray
     
  14. timothy27

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    Ask yourself if all people are saved. Do you believe Revelations is the future? If you do then all people are not saved and 1 Tim. is false.

    God has two wills, a will of desire and a will of decree, He does not always decree what he desires.
     
  15. timothy27

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    Robert, John Piper has a really good sermon on this. Go to his sight DesiringGod.org and you will find it there.
     
  16. Timtoolman

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    Timothy27, I edit it, sorry if I was too strong. I am very passoniate about this subject and follow it not only here but two other boards. Just mostly reading lately because there are many great, articulate people on here. I was just meant that anyone who thinks, from either side, that they have refuted everything the other side has without strecthing the scriptures is only fooling themselves.
     
  17. timothy27

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    As you should be. And true.
     
  18. whatever

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    Hi Robert,

    I can desire ice cream but will frozen yogurt. I can desire fried chicken but will grilled chicken. That's how I can do it.

    Non-Calvinists have to deal with the same issue, too. Obviously God could make everyone believe, so since He desires that everyone believe why doesn't He make it happen? Or if He didn't desire for Adam to sin then why didn't He will a way to prevent it? The different sides answer these questions differently, but I just wanted to point out that your question is not just a question for Calvinists, but for all believers.
     
  19. whatever

    whatever
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    Oops, you've jumped the track already. This statement is not true, which renders the rest of your post irrelevant.
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Timothy27,

    Where I come from we say this is 'talking out of both sides of your mouth.'

    The Lord desire all sinners to become saved, but He respects the human agency/the free will given to every human being. :cool:
     

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