The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

Ann,

I said..

To which you replied...

Scripture does not contradict itself and this passage is indeed saying that a man is justified (reckoned righteous) by works and not by faith alone. In fact, this is the only passage in the Bible with "justified", "works" and "faith alone" altogether--no where does it state that "so you see a man is justified by faith alone". So you are right--Scripture doesn't contradict itself; it just contradicts the doctrine of "sola fide".

That's actually a distortion of the meaning--the word justification means the same here as in the Pauline passages, "to be reckoned, or considered, righteous" in a juridical sense.

Christ is clear that in God's courtroom we will be reckoned righteous, or condemned, by what we say as this does indeed take place in the day of judgement (v.36). Of course these words occur in the context of the rest of lives--ie our thoughts and deeds--with good men bringing forth good things from their hearts and evil men bring forth evil things from theirs (v35), but God will most certainly take our words into consideration at His final judgement. And we know that those who have done good will have the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil the resurrection of condemnation.(John 5:28-29)

Ahh...here you make the mistake of thinking 'justified' means "MADE righteous" when it really means to be "RECKONED righteous". You also assume that this 'reckoning (or considering) righteous only occurs once in a person's life, but that is certainly begging the question.

Same with this quote

Which is nothing I ever claimed since justifed means "reckoned righteous" rather than MADE righteous"

Yet works doesn't come automatically without fail from faith; works are needed to COMPLETE (or "make perfect") faith (v.22), as there is such a thing as a dead workless faith (v.26).

I then said...

To which you replied..

We're certainly not going to ultimately be saved without it.

But here again, love isn't something that automatically without fail comes from a one-time moment of faith, that we must keep His commandments to abide in His love (John 15:10) and show our love for Him (14:21,23) and we're warned by Christ that the love of many will grow cold (Matthew 24:12). Love is the last thing on the list of things Peter mentions we must "diligently add" to our faith so we don't become unfruitful. Which brings me to what I had said next:

To which you replied...

Not quite. We are indeed only able to do this (ie "diligent add" these things) because God has first given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3) by His Spirit, but we must certainly use our will to diligently add these things to our faith. If our will wasn't involved the command would be superfluous.

Amen :thumbs:

To the contrary our part is to diligently add our things to our faith so we don't become unfruitful. Remember the unfruitful branches are cast out of the Vine and burned (John 15:2,6)

Yeah, the great reward is an entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Christ (2 Peter 1:11)--ie finally saved. This of course is consistent with Paul who said that eternal life will be rendered to those who patiently continue to do what is good (Romans 2:6-7)

But Christ's righteousness is only ours if we are in Him. And we must continue to keep His commandments if we are to continue to abide in Him (1 John 3:24, John 15:10). Our works are certainly the fruits of us being in Christ, but these fruits don't come passively and automatically, or else Christ wouldn't have to command us to abide in Him. We must abide in Him--He doesn't "abide in Him" for us. :smilewinkgrin: If we don't continue in His goodness standing (actively) by faith, we too will be cut off (Romans 11:20-22).

Yes, God is the one at "work IN" us to will and do for His good pleasure (and without Him we can do nothing--John 15:5), but we are the ones who must work OUT our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12-13)--He doesn't do the "working OUT" for us

 

Doubting Thomas...

You said...

Really? Lets take a look and see if that is true, shall we?

God says, in His scriptures...

The scriptures speak for themselves. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.


Sorry. God disagrees with you.


(Of course, those scriptures are the proverbial "tip of the iceberg".)




:godisgood:

 

Glad you liked it.:wavey:

 

Adoration of Mary would be considered to be wrong according to Catholic teachings. Has any individual Catholic ever worshipped Mary -- that I do not know. Only God can make that determination. Just as I cannot know if any individual Baptist has ever worshipped their car, or money, or any other idol. The reality is you cannot know about those individuals at the 10 commandments monument either. You make a judgment based upon your paradigm and make an assumption, for you also cannot see into their hearts. Individuals may not be worshipping the monument. Probably not. Most people, including Catholics know that these things are representation of something else. Yet, an individual may have been worshipping the attention they were getting for what they were doing and not God. Neither of us can know that nor can we judge.

One thing I have learned that growing up Catholic and being Catholic can be two very different things. Many people leave Catholic schools with little information about what the Catholic church actually believes or teaches. That is truly a shame. But if you left with the perception that Catholics worship Mary, then that is not correct.

 

Based on whose authority? They cite supporting Scripture as their authority. It is a literal interpretation of the command to make no likeness of anything. You are certainly entitled to an opinion, but this is stated in the Bible. The question of how to interpret, what to take literally, what to believe is allegory or metaphorical – all part of interpretation which leads individuals to many different conclusions. Not all can be true. Perhaps in this case they are the ones who are right. Just as they refuse to take an oath when in court. Scripture plainly says not to, so they don’t. Others ignore that.

 

Objects certainly can be more than just objects. An American flag for example. Do you pledge allegiance to it? Get upset if somebody chooses to desecrate it? Respect it? Basically it’s an object – a piece of material.

Venerating an object is about understanding what the object or symbol represents, and giving appropriate honor to what it represents, not the object itself. And I would never accuse someone of worshipping the American flag simply because they choose to stand when it passes by in a parade and place their hand over their heart and recite a few words. Or have a specific ritual for folding it and presenting it to a dead soldier's family. Or flying it a certain way during a time of tragedy. I wouldn't consider it worship even when they promise loyalty to a piece of cloth.

How can you tell if someone is simply venerating the flag or worshipping it? Pretty much have to take their word for it or make an assumption rooted in your own perception.

 

Being able to hear the prayers of others does not meet my definition of omnipresence and omniscience. I’m actually curious how you think you’re going to hear at all after you are dead? You will have no ears. Does that mean until you get your resurrected body you will be in a silent void, with no communication? If not, why would you assume that however you will hear would have the same limitations as your current body?

We know that in heaven we shall be able to participate in the divine nature of God. This does not mean we are omnipresent or omniscient. It should certainly mean that we will have spiritual gifts we currently do not have. We are participating in the nature of the One who is omniscient, omnipresent and hears all. Perhaps he chooses to share through our union to His nature?

To believe that we have no need of those who are alive in Christ after the death of their bodies and they no longer care or are concerned for us indicates a belief that we are separated from the body of Christ at death. Yet Scripture tells us that nothing, even death can separate us from the love of Christ

 

Let's really clarify what grace means to a Catholic.

What grace means to a Catholic is first and foremost a participation in the life of the Trinity. It is the free and undeserved help God grants to enable us to respond to his call.

Grace comes in many forms and can be administered in many ways which indeed includes the Sacraments – a fount of grace flowing through the church. Why would one not believe this is the main purpose of the church? And yet, the grace of God is in no way limited or bound. We are all called to administer grace to each other as well, through our witness to our faith, and our prayer and encouragement for each other, and our works of mercy. Catholics do not believe the sacraments are the ONLY way grace is received or that the church is the SOLE dispenser of grace.

Catholics also believe that Jesus paid for all of our sins. No more work to be done there at all. Yet forgiveness of sins does not mean removal of the consequences. Ask anyone who fornicated and ended up with a baby. The damage is done. The wages of sin is death. We still die, even though our sins are forgiven. If your child carelessly breaks the neighbor’s window do you tell him that there is no need to make reparation because Jesus paid the debt for his sin? Through the process of sanctification the Holy Spirit guides us in making reparation to heal our soul from the consequences of our sin.

 

Well, James is who said it was useless, not me. And I agree that works don’t make us alive. But is it our faith that makes us alive? Or is it God’s grace? If it is God’s grace (not our faith) and if the above red is true, then how can one say that faith alone is necessary for salvation and not works? I actually don’t disagree with your statement. The problem is, when people place all the focus on “faith alone” and profess that works are not necessary – they miss the point you make in the highlighted above. Some will go so far as to say you are incorrect – a saving faith can indeed be one without works. It also takes the message of salvation away from its true source – God’s grace and places it on our faith.

 

I would never say we are saved by our love. I will say consistently that we are saved by God’s grace. Nothing else.

But I certainly think as good of a case can be made for love as ‘faith alone’. Jesus gives us two commandments – to love the Lord God with our whole heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves. St. John tells us that those who claim to know Christ but do not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Can a person be saved if the truth is not in him?

 

As is faith, is it not? Or do you profess that we become alive by our faith?

 

Where does Scripture state we won't have ears

Jesus looked like Jesus after His resurrection...and the Bible says our bodies will be like His.

 

First of all, if the correlation is that clear, why do you have to add the word “alone” to get your thunder?

Second, I believe this is the only Scripture that indicates that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Most simply say by grace. It explicitly does not say faith ‘alone’. If it did, that would mean the only way grace can work in our lives is through faith. While it is certainly a primary vehicle for grace – it is not and cannot be the only one. Even the scriptures that speak of believing in Christ (can you believe in Christ without works?) – note that the ability to believe itself is actually a work of grace. Grace must be working before we can even have faith – so obviously not all grace comes through faith.

The other reason that “faith alone” is not the singular vehicle for grace is that those who die as infants or young children do not have the intellect for faith. So one must conclude that either 1) they are all damned to hell because they had no way to receive the grace of salvation or 2) they do not need a Savior and therefore do not require saving grace or 3) there is/are ways for grace to be received other than by faith.

 

Because to my knowledge we do not get those resurrected bodies until the second coming of Christ? Until then our bodies are in the grave, waiting to be united with our spirits.

 

It is a lie that we are saved by God’s grace? Your position is that you are saved by your own faith?

 

So now you are saying that if you don’t have works you really aren’t a believer? Let me see if I have this logic right. You are saved by your faith. If you don’t have works, your faith is not real. But works play absolutely no role in your being saved.

How many works does it take to make your faith real?

 

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No need to shout.

The only place that "faith alone" is thundered from the Scriptures is when James tells us it is useless. Other than that, you have to add the word "alone" throughout to prove your point. Isn't there something about not adding to the words of Scripture?

In addition, you've said that faith is only real if it includes works. So basically, when you say that we are saved by faith alone (no works), aren't you saying that we are saved by a faith that isn't real?

 

Can you provide the actual Vatican 2 document this is from? I just looked through the 16 I know of and can't find this quote.